165 replies to this topic

[Greensboronclion]

This has been an issue since the advent of online competitions. There will ALWAYS be those who accuse others who compete better than they do of cheating or having an unfair advantage. When I won the EA Sports Internet TOUR for Tiger Woods 99 PC, I was accused ad nauseum of cheating to win the title and the $10,000. Ironically, the final event was played in Las Vegas at the TPC Summerlin Grand Ballroom with the 8 finalists playing with the EXACT SAME equipment in the same room in front of 1500 spectators. Yet I was still accused of cheating even by a couple of the finalist.

 

At the end of the day, you can't escape those who claim you or others cheat. It will be with us from now on for PC/console online gaming competition. You can either accept it for what it is and play the game and ignore the noise, or you can tangle yourself up with discussions like this that clearly have no tangible answers to the issue. I have made my choice. I will play this game as long as it is fun and challenging and I will compete against others not caring if they cheat or not because up to now, there is simply no ironclad way to detect those doing so without false positives. Until such time, why worry about things you cannot control? What I can control is how well I play on any given course. That is my challenge and why I am here.

 

 

 

Brother I am with you 110% in just tee it up and play.

[Mike Jones]

It is technically possible as evidenced in Links 2004 and allegedly in current TGC2 alpha builds.

I played a couple career mode rounds of Links 2004 (backwards compatible on Xbox 360) last night and still believe it has the best tempoed gamepad controller swing even to this day.



-MERACE

 

Don't confuse tempo with the ratio we use in the mouse swings. PG controller swing already has tempo built into it as when you swing down faster the ball goes further and vice versa. Ratio is something else entirely.

[Buck]

Buck I use the DS4 wired and have never had the message if it helps but then again the only message I would receive is that I suck.  Lol.

 

 

Right.

It's only bluetooth wireless where this issues seems to be.

[Mike Jones]

 

We can detect controllers and mice which are playing more forgiving than the norm, what various tours do with this information is up to them. Maybe they do nothing or maybe they introduce a handicap tour or maybe they handicap players who are playing with a controller that is detected as being forgiving. It's entirely up to them.

 

 

so you feel it is up to the tours? i gather this means you are not looking into ways ingame of solving the more forgiving play methods? or are you? there must be some kind of ingame solution we can come up with, with the help of the PG community

 

 

As I said we can detect it but we don't run the third party tours, what they do with the information gathered by the PG software is up to them. 

[DivotMaker]

Wired I take it?

 

I found it interesting that Mike was pondering that bluetooth transmission of my DS4 signal was perhaps simplifying the input results to PG and thus bringing up the message.

Looking forward to seeing what happens with the XB1s controller over bluetooth.

No, wireless with the Xbox One PC adapter.

[JCat04]

Don't confuse tempo with the ratio we use in the mouse swings. PG controller swing already has tempo built into it as when you swing down faster the ball goes further and vice versa. Ratio is something else entirely.

 

I can't quite wrap my hands around how Links 2004 did it... was it just the fact that there was an ideal swing speed it was looking for?  If you came in under OR over it, you lost shot power?  I somehow got a sense that it had something to do with a uniform acceleration AND swing speed.

[Buck]

@Mike:  Do you recommend (or test with) a certain controller for the game?

 

If I had to guess, I'd say a wired XB1 or XB360 controller is the main one used when testing and implementing aspects of the RTS-C..

Would that be accurate?

[Buck]

No, wireless with the Xbox One PC adapter.

 

Ahh - Ok - But still not bluetooth in that scenario I think...

This bluetooth angle is interesting to me.  

 

I'm definitely stuck using BT as the other wireless types are really flaky in my HTPC environment.  Something about the distance to my PC and some level of interference in my place just makes BT way better for some reason.

[MERACE]

I can't quite wrap my hands around how Links 2004 did it... was it just the fact that there was an ideal swing speed it was looking for?  If you came in under OR over it, you lost shot power?  I somehow got a sense that it had something to do with a uniform acceleration AND swing speed.

That is also my understanding of how the "tempo" in the Links 2004 controller swing works. It's probably not a strict ratio requirement which I prefer over what's in JNPG RTS mouse swing.


-MERACE

[MERACE]

Let's not take HB's claim of "tempo" in TGC2 until we actually see what it really is.

That's why I included the word "allegedly" since nothing has been made public regarding the tempoed swing in TGC2 other than some commments made about it from the developer.


-MERACE

[Buck]

"Allegedly" TGC2 will be the most amazing golf game ever...

 

-JohnEric & ADX

[drb7]

As I said we can detect it but we don't run the third party tours, what they do with the information gathered by the PG software is up to them. 

yes i understand comp wise, but i was talking gameplay wise, are you thinking of ways to take away the advantage of forgiving controllers and some mouse?

[Ted_Ball]

Please let me say that I'm not trying to start an argument. I'm certainly not accusing anyone of cheating. I don't know what devices people are using and if I could care less I would. (That's a new slant on that horribly mis-used term.)  I don't even play at OGT. Having said that, and to be honest, it is annoying to play against someone (in a recorded round) who seems to have a technical advantage. Glib responses about Spieth/Day are very funny but even if the anecdote was true Day, of course, doesn't have a mechanical advantage.

 

 

There's a fundamental issue here that interests me - what measures are being undertaken in light of that advantage. Z's cryptic response about OGT allowing any device for reasons he did not want to go into only made me more curious.

 

Look, I'm stirring the possum. Forgive me. But I did get a response from Mike and Z which might be to everyone's benefit. It's obviously a topic that people are interested in judging by this thread so I'm satisfied possum-wise. 

 

I like the fact that there is a separation of church and state between the developers and OGT (and other 3rd parties) and the explanations go some way towards answering questions if not solving the riddle.

 

 

In the current public build, the forgiving device detection is not working correctly.  We are seeing false data.  Players have been incorrectly getting the courtesy message. There are near straight devices that dont get detected. IMO, this is very much a work in progress.

Even when it starts working correctly, I dont think putting a forgiving handicap or label on players is the way to go.  You will just cause players to quit and leave the game.

 

If the detection is not working correctly why is it there? And if it does start working correctly and those users aren't penalised you could then argue that players could also quit and leave the game.

[gravedodger]

No worries Ted, your comments didn't strike me as accusing in any way, you're just expressing concerns about level playing fields etc etc with control methods, nothing wrong with that buddy

[zmax - sim]

 

If the detection is not working correctly why is it there? And if it does start working correctly and those users aren't penalised you could then argue that players could also quit and leave the game.

 

That's like asking, "Why are there bugs in the game"?   lol

 

Think about this.  Using a forgiving device doesn't necessary make a player great.  For most players, it will improve some of their stats but doesn't mean a top 5 in world rankings.  Obviously, a good player can really take advantage of a forgiving device.  Now take a mediocre player that never wins and finishes in the middle of the pack or even in the top 20, but just happens to be using a "forgiving device".   If I slap a forgiving handicap on him, he's gonna tell me to F-Off and leave.

 

As you can see, it's a complicated issue.  Detecting and banning certain devices is a waste of time.  It will not work.  It will only piss of customers/players.  There are ways to get around it.  As for detecting straight/forgiving controllers, there are and will always be ways to get around it.   The cheaters will always find ways to go undetected.  

 

The handicap system based on performance only is one real solution.  Any other ideas?

[Ted_Ball]

I've got plenty of ideas.

 

Wait a minute - you said it's a work in progress which, I assume, means that one day there will be an effective detection system. Then you say detecting and banning devices is a waste of time or slapping a punitive handicap on a mid-fielder would be counter-productive. Which brings me back to the question of, for one thing, if it's not working then why is it there and secondly if there is going to be no penalty why is it there?

 

The other curious thing about your post (and again I'm simply enjoying the discussion and not having a go at you personally) is that a mid-fielder seems like they will be allowed forgiving devices because they aren't in contention. That's like saying a schoolboy may as well be allowed to ch..t in an exam because he won't matriculate anyway. And what if that mid-fielder knuckles down to his game and starts to be in contention?

 

Now....a good player can (not may) really take advantage of a forgiving device. Are you now saying there will be a penalty after detection or no penalty? Is the detection going to be implemented when it works properly or not. If not then why have the message there in the first place?

 

No further questions at this point Y' Worship.

[zmax - sim]

I've got plenty of ideas.

 

The other curious thing about your post (and again I'm simply enjoying the discussion and not having a go at you personally) is that a mid-fielder seems like they will be allowed forgiving devices because they aren't in contention. That's like saying a schoolboy may as well be allowed to ch..t in an exam because he won't matriculate anyway. And what if that mid-fielder knuckles down to his game and starts to be in contention?

 

Obviously, if I was going to implemented something like that, it would have to be done across the board.  Which will cause more harm than good.  i.e. trying to handicap the very few "cheaters" while hurting and pissing off the majority.  And as I said, the few cheaters will probably find a way to go undetected.

 

As for your other questions, that's for PP to answer.    Btw, still waiting for your ideas.

[Ted_Ball]

I'll start another thread.

[Greensboronclion]

I have said simple idea and again it's just an idea so don't crucify me so here it goes. Eliminate the ability to move the shot shaper left or right and the guys and gals using a non axis controller will drop them in a heartbeat. Yo see those Speed link type controllers are damn near impossible to shape the ball so those who use them use the shot shaper to draw and fade and it's really the only way they can. Keep it for loft and deloft for the controller but no movement ability left or right. Just my three cents.

[zmax - sim]

I have said simple idea and again it's just an idea so don't crucify me so here it goes. Eliminate the ability to move the shot shaper left or right and the guys and gals using a non axis controller will drop them in a heartbeat. Yo see those Speed link type controllers are damn near impossible to shape the ball so those who use them use the shot shaper to draw and fade and it's really the only way they can. Keep it for loft and deloft for the controller but no movement ability left or right. Just my three cents.

 

That's a good idea.  Obviously leave the left/right shaper for 3 clickers.