197 replies to this topic

[zmax - sim]

I'd be all over that.  But the tournaments that we tried out with no BLI or Grids didn't generate much interest so I kinda wonder if something like this would ever pull in enough people?

 

It was done on the honor system at that time.  It has to be done via the api to gain traction.

[zmax - sim]

The only recommendation I would have is to show the round scores gross, and then show an index column and then a net column for total score.  But that's just a personal preference.

 

OGT leaderboards show both GROSS and NET totals now.  You can sort by GROSS or NET if you want.  The INDEX column is also there.

[DivotMaker]

I'd be all over that.  But the tournaments that we tried out with no BLI or Grids didn't generate much interest so I kinda wonder if something like this would ever pull in enough people?

 

Ditto.

[frank70]

Where to start  ....

 

1. A Tour Pro setup without grids or BLI? I am in. I wasn't playing the exhibitions because of time restraints. I wanted to get my tour rounds in.

 

2. Handicaps: I don't like the concept. But it's just a personal opinion when thinking about the nature of competition. Zmax talked about Top players. We have quite a few at the Tour Pro level. If you look at the different winners it's quite obvious that a lot of guys can win a tournament. A few months ago Affo was the man to beat, then mmmduff was on top, Richybro won two afterwards and now Maverick is hot. A lot of guys have already won, but no one has dominated the tour throughout the beginning until now. So i see absolutely no reason for the implementation of a handicap system on the hardest level. If your score isn't good enough to ever get into contention the answer in my opinion isn't to ask for a handicap system - the answer could or should be to drop down a difficulty level.

 

3. Realism: We already have played on real venues. With more real courses in the pipeline we probably play the same course as the real Tour plays more often than we got the chance to so far. For me that is real immersive. Watch the round on TV when the Spieths, Days and McIlroys battle it out - and then play the same course in a competitive atmosphere against my peers at OGT. Handicaps for me take away the immersion. Lowest score should win. At least on the hardest difficulty level. Nobody is forced to play on Tour Pro - and nobody should be gifted "a good chance to win" on the hardest difficulty level without having the game for it.

 

I say that although i have exactly won 2 tournaments so far. And that weren't even Tour Pro events - they were Play-Off-events played on the Pro level. So i am "losing" literarily everytime i tee it up on the Tour Pro level. And i am okay with it. I am not good enough. Better players than me win.

I say that although i think that RTS-M overall is the most difficult swing device. I would like a more balanced field in some aspects of the game. But no matter what: I love to compete with the best players of JNPG. And i think one Tour where the best player stands on top is a must - for OGT as well. I won't be that player - so you can say that i am rooting for a different guy in a way.

[DivotMaker]

^^^^^Well stated Frank....^^^^^

[Buck]

I'd be all over that.  But the tournaments that we tried out with no BLI or Grids didn't generate much interest so I kinda wonder if something like this would ever pull in enough people?

FTR: This is still the ONLY way I play every single round.
Not even an "honor" thing with me at this point.

I just find BLI/Grids to be completely immersion ruining and janky video game affordances that once you get away from, you'll never look back.

[DivotMaker]

FTR: This is still the ONLY way I play every single round.
Not even an "honor" thing with me at this point.

I just find BLI/Grids to be completely immersion ruining and janky video game affordances that once you get away from, you'll never look back.

 

If OGT was set up that way, I would love it and only play that way, That being said, I have grids off, but only use them when on the green by pressing the Y key. I press the Y key again before I putt. When I am not playing OGT, I am playing with Realistic greens with no grids. It is the most immersive way to play IMO. I have never used the BLI.

[Buck]

If OGT was set up that way, I would love it and only play that way, That being said, I have grids off, but only use them when on the green by pressing the Y key. I press the Y key again before I putt. When I am not playing OGT, I am playing with Realistic greens with no grids. It is the most immersive way to play IMO. I have never used the BLI.

I just prefer to play No Aids and never win I guess. Whatever.

It's a superior experience in my opinion and I have to enjoy myself to even want to play and grids/BLI belong back in the stone age w/ 3C.

(Controversial perhaps - I don't care - Just how I feel)

[mebby]

FTR: This is still the ONLY way I play every single round.
Not even an "honor" thing with me at this point.

I just find BLI/Grids to be completely immersion ruining and janky video game affordances that once you get away from, you'll never look back.

I agree.  I use grids in OGT tournaments to stay competitive but I'd prefer to play without them.  I have BLI turned off and never use it.

 

When I play on my own I do not use grids.  It's much more immersive that way and I can read the greens to a realistic level.

[DivotMaker]

I just prefer to play No Aids and never win I guess. Whatever.

It's a superior experience in my opinion and I have to enjoy myself to even want to play and grids/BLI belong back in the stone age w/ 3C.

(Controversial perhaps - I don't care - Just how I feel)

 

Nothing controversial IMO....just your opinion and your choice.

 

Don't disagree with you on where grids and BLI belong....

[Dazmaniac]

Why not let OGT do what they want to do and if you don't like it, start your own tour with the rules you want, lol.

Whatever OGT do or don't do, certain numbers of the community will disagree with whatever route they take. IMO there will never be a tour where 100% of participants are happy with the rules.

[Crow357]

Sigh.  Please stop replying to Stopits comments.  That way, I don't have to delete your posts too cause you quote him.. lol

[Ted_Ball]

I'm not sure what the problem is Z. The PGA Tour membership is at 200. That's seems like a solid number to me. (I was ecstatic with 10 joining the FRET tour.) But alright - less than 100 actually completed their four rounds. That's still a good number for any comp.

 

Are you trying to increase the membership and/or the final participation? Is the problem mixing swing types and the 'un-level playing field' of helpful devices?

 

It looks like a handicap system is gaining support - but then again there is also opposition to handicaps. The dilemma of the Tour organiser!

 

I suppose I might as well offer an opinion seeing that I'm an experienced, if not a successful, tour organiser. And Z challenged me to come up with ideas.

 

Your PGA Tour should be the showcase of the organisation. It should be the competition in which everyone wants to participate and where players feel they are competing in an important event. In my opinion handicaps lessen that importance. Handicaps are fine for weekly club comps but I don't think they are appropriate for the PGA Tour. There is also the trouble in handicapping across levels which you have stated. 

 

There may be alternatives to a handicap system that will increase participation;  maintain the prestige of the event;  negate the influence of helpful devices;  be all-encompassing of levels;  and satisfy everyone.

 

Let me explain a little bit about Promotion and Relegation as seen in the English Premier League and Football League and show you its benefits and why it could be an alternative. I'd hate to think you would dismiss this idea because you weren't fully aware of how it works. I have raised this idea in the past.

 

For a start - it shouldn't create another division in the community and, in fact, could possibly bring the community together. The League is a robust competition among over 90 clubs in four divisions that has been running absolutely successfully since I can remember. The passion associated with promotion and relegation between divisions has been maintained for decades. A team being relegated from the 1st division at the end of the year is cause for major drowning of sorrows at pubs with lager. Unbelievable I know. On the other hand promotion to a higher division is cause for celebrating the same way. 

 

As you can probably work out, there is keen competition WITHIN the whole league. You could argue that there are 8 competions happening simultaneously.

 

How does this relate to the OGT PGA competition and how would it address the problems mentioned in this thread (if you can call them problems)?

 

1.  It could encourage a profound increase in participation and commitment to the PGA Tour. Commitment in that players are likely to play all the rounds with the aim of maintaining their status in their division.

 

2.  The nature of the promo/relo system means that there are multiple winners throughout the comp. Sure, there are also 'losers' but they are still active in the comp and they might have even more incentive to rise again to a higher division.

 

3.  One of the things I see in OGT comps are the players who play above their skill level and subsequently score very high. I wouldn't for a moment insist that they play at a more appropriate level but their position within this type of league (low divisions) might provide them with an incentive to change levels.

 

4.  All levels and swing types can compete in the one competition. This is extremely controversial because a TourPro player in Division 1 might have to compete with a Hacker and they might not like it. I look at it this way. Each one of us playing this great game of JNPG has different skill levels and we are provided with an avenue to play a round successfully - let's say, to par. This is, in fact, a form of handicapping and has the effect of levelling the playing field. Do we really want to see the ultra-proficient computer players dominating leaderboards? I think that is counterproductive. A TourPro comp can run independently from the PGA which should satisfy those people.

 

5.  Promotion and Relegation could maybe happen monthly or bi-monthly to increase interest and participation.

 

6.  I would even hide each player's swing method and playing level from the leaderboard to further diminish perceptions of 'unfairness'.

 

 

It's precious of me to sit here (I'm at work) and pontificate about something I'm not even involved in but I would certainly be keen on playing in a PGA Tour with these conditions. There might even be a way to incorporate recorded rounds which would be fantastic.

 

OK. Back to work. (Possibly Imgur or iwastesomuchtime)

[hhatch]

I have never won a tournament and most likely never will but I don't particularly like the handicap system. I get no satisfaction from beating someone better than me because I got 5 strokes.

 

The only value to me in a handicap system is it allows me to play against players of similar skill level, but I still would want to play them straight up.

[zmax - sim]

Thsnk you for that detailed explaination.  Im on my phone so i apologizes for this short reply.

 

What you suggested will not work with PG and OGT.  I can see it working with TGC since its a one swing/difficulty game.  With PG, its one thing to have a ladder between a Pro and an Amateur play, but you can not have them compete in the same tour event.  Nobody will want to do that.  In the PGA Tour, we allow a TP guy to play his tournament round with his Amateur friend but they are really not competing against each other.

[zmax - sim]

Also, the premier leagues concept of 4 divisions will only work if we only had one difficulty level.  The PGA tour is one league with 4 different levels.  All csn play together.   With the 4 divisions based on performance, division A will not be able to play with Division B.  Thus, dividing the community.

[Ted_Ball]

The English Football League is, in fact, one league. The lowest team in Division 4 (no names) can, within a certain amount of time, become a Div 1 team. The difference between that football league and golf is because 90 football teams can't play in the one division.

 

More later. I'm knocking off.

[zmax - sim]

I understand that.  They don't have to deal with 4 different difficulty levels.  We do.  The premier league concept would work with real golf and simulator golf.

[Ted_Ball]

The concept of divisions is to increase the interest through the field of say 200 players - as a way to maintain the numbers throughout a tournament - rather than having half the field not complete the tournament.

 

The concept of having all levels playing against each other unifies the players into one competition and means there is no need for handicaps as that concept is a form of handicap. The handicap system you would put in place still divides the community because, as I read it in post #3, the handicaps don't cross levels and would only be put in place to negate the effect of helpful devices.

 

The opposition to the second concept is that a Hacker might win a tournament and, therefore, the 'best player' won't. There is still the option of moving a winning Hacker up a level. The Hacker would still possibly have to shoot -25 to win the tournament anyway. If I was to play at Pro level in an all-in comp I will never shoot -25 and there would be many players in the same boat. That a TourPro can shoot -25 will give him a damn good chance of winning in spite of playing in a field including Hackers. At Medinah in the last PGA event the overall winner was a TourPro shooting -30 to the Pro's -25 and the Amateur's -21. The Hacker shot -12 so what's the problem? Take away the level designations on those guys and it looks like a great, keenly fought tournament.

 

Now, if a TourPro shoots -30 and uses a helpful device it doesn't matter because anyone is able to use the same device. I notice there's a push to forget about drug ch..ts in sport now because it can't be stopped. Not that I'm calling anyone a ch..t.

[Buck]

You're onto something here Ted

Great stuff..