197 replies to this topic

[StoneComet]

Wirenut48, on 07 Jan 2017 - 01:41 AM, said:

Handicap system does offer a player the ability to play the way they want and not feel pointless. As example for me I have thrown my charts in the trash since this last update. Playing now just by visuals and feel and mental notes, for me it is much more relaxing and fun. But to be competitive you need your charts and calculator and way too much effort for my enjoyment. 

 

So I could see handicaps spark an interest for those that just enjoy playing the game to participate more in events.

 

Hi guys,

 

This along with Greensboronclion's observation just about sums it up for me. I play tournament events (rarely, but when I do) for the extra pressure it puts on my game. I do it more for something different and for general enjoyment and a Net score along with the Gross would make it more enjoyable from a leader board chasing standpoint for me. I could care less about a handicapped ranking system, for me it's about that tournament alone. Mainly because I'm not really good enough to rank very high. In fact I do not think that a ranked handicap system is really necessary.

 

The Gross minded players would still have their ranking system and winners and the NET minded players would have something else to shoot for. I just do not see how adding this extra dimension at every level and tour would offend anyone that is Gross minded because they still have that. Especially if Net results are not ranked.

 

SC 

[Dazmaniac]

I like to see both sides of the coin,as far as competitions are concerned and was how I ran my old Links 2003 tour.

 

Scratch Tours with skill levels all paired off so you are competing against a like for like opponents, all playing the same level as you. If you don't win, you are only beaten by better players on the day at your chosen skill level.

 

Handicap Tour where all swing skill levels compete in one event. allow Amateurs to compete with Pro and Tour Pro, without claims of one swing is easier than the other and so has a greater advantage. The player handicap is used to offset the scoring ability of each player to encourage close competition and best net score wins. Handicaps are continually updated event to event.

 

Those with only an interest in the scratch play for their own preferred skill level have their events to play for, while scores also contribute towards the Handicap tour for those that have an interest in the open tournament aspect.

[frank70]

Dazmaniac, on 07 Jan 2017 - 08:56 AM, said:

I like to see both sides of the coin,as far as competitions are concerned and was how I ran my old Links 2003 tour.

 

Scratch Tours with skill levels all paired off so you are competing against a like for like opponents, all playing the same level as you. If you don't win, you are only beaten by better players on the day at your chosen skill level.

 

Handicap Tour where all swing skill levels compete in one event. allow Amateurs to compete with Pro and Tour Pro, without claims of one swing is easier than the other and so has a greater advantage. The player handicap is used to offset the scoring ability of each player to encourage close competition and best net score wins. Handicaps are continually updated event to event.

 

Those with only an interest in the scratch play for their own preferred skill level have their events to play for, while scores also contribute towards the Handicap tour for those that have an interest in the open tournament aspect.

This might be a solution: Just an additional handicap tour for all swing devices and all difficulty levels. Some guys at OGT like and have the time to play even more. Leave all tours as they are and implement a handicap tour on top. 

[Dazmaniac]

The Handicap Tour would only require additional work on the website side of things, as the scores could be taken from the scores already in place Scr tours.

 

Example. You have 5 separate tours in play:-

Beginner, Hacker, Amateur, Pro and Tour Pro

 

All 5 play the same tournament setup for tees, conditions, pins, wind etc. Players play as normal at their chosen skill level. Scores are submitted/collated in the usual way and appear on respective Scr Tour leaderboards for each skill level.

 

Handicap Tour basically uses the scores being submitted, applies the player handicaps and shows the net scores.

 

No extra rounds are required, no extra tournament files need to be created. Just needs appropriate site coding to pull the gross scores from the relevant leaderboards.

 

* The one issue you could have is the skill level players are playing at as you can't really allow players to chop and change skill level each tournament (like the rues allow for now) as the handicap needs to be linked to one skill level. Can't have someone play at Tour Pro for several weeks and see the handicap going down and down and then suddenly turn up and play at Amateur with the Tour Pro handicap and win the event by 10 shots, lol.

 

So for it to work, players need to commit to a skill level and stick with it each season. If players change skill from season to season, have them play some Q-School rounds to obtain a new handicap at their new chosen skill level or start them with a pre-determined default handicap. Keep players ongoing handicaps for different skill levels on file, so if a player reverts back to a previously used skill level, the old handicap can be re-enabled.

 

Just a few thoughts. It would mean initial additional admin and website work, but kills two birds with one stone as players get to compete on 2 tours at the same time and are only having to submit one lot of scores, so doesn't impact additionally on players having to find time to cram more rounds in.

[DivotMaker]

Dazmaniac, on 07 Jan 2017 - 08:56 AM, said:

I like to see both sides of the coin,as far as competitions are concerned and was how I ran my old Links 2003 tour.

 

Scratch Tours with skill levels all paired off so you are competing against a like for like opponents, all playing the same level as you. If you don't win, you are only beaten by better players on the day at your chosen skill level.

 

Handicap Tour where all swing skill levels compete in one event. allow Amateurs to compete with Pro and Tour Pro, without claims of one swing is easier than the other and so has a greater advantage. The player handicap is used to offset the scoring ability of each player to encourage close competition and best net score wins. Handicaps are continually updated event to event.

 

Those with only an interest in the scratch play for their own preferred skill level have their events to play for, while scores also contribute towards the Handicap tour for those that have an interest in the open tournament aspect.

 

Sounds doable and reasonable to me....need to get Vance's take....

[zmax - sim]

Dazmaniac, on 07 Jan 2017 - 12:44 PM, said:

The Handicap Tour would only require additional work on the website side of things, as the scores could be taken from the scores already in place Scr tours.

 

Example. You have 5 separate tours in play:-

Beginner, Hacker, Amateur, Pro and Tour Pro

 

All 5 play the same tournament setup for tees, conditions, pins, wind etc. Players play as normal at their chosen skill level. Scores are submitted/collated in the usual way and appear on respective Scr Tour leaderboards for each skill level.

 

Handicap Tour basically uses the scores being submitted, applies the player handicaps and shows the net scores.

 

No extra rounds are required, no extra tournament files need to be created. Just needs appropriate site coding to pull the gross scores from the relevant leaderboards.

 

This is the best idea of them all.  We did talk about this in the Controller handicap thread.  We have this in the OGT simulator tour now but its a separate site.  It would require a lot of changes and a lot of coding to add this to the current mouse/controller tours.   So, probably not going to happen.

[zmax - sim]

Dazmaniac, on 07 Jan 2017 - 08:56 AM, said:

I like to see both sides of the coin,as far as competitions are concerned and was how I ran my old Links 2003 tour.

 

Scratch Tours with skill levels all paired off so you are competing against a like for like opponents, all playing the same level as you. If you don't win, you are only beaten by better players on the day at your chosen skill level.

 

Handicap Tour where all swing skill levels compete in one event. allow Amateurs to compete with Pro and Tour Pro, without claims of one swing is easier than the other and so has a greater advantage. The player handicap is used to offset the scoring ability of each player to encourage close competition and best net score wins. Handicaps are continually updated event to event.

 

Those with only an interest in the scratch play for their own preferred skill level have their events to play for, while scores also contribute towards the Handicap tour for those that have an interest in the open tournament aspect.

 

We can easily add a PGA Handicap Tour.  More than likely, we would just end the RTSM tour and use it for a PGA Handicap tour instead.  Only problem is you can't cross play between the two tours, so it would require addition rounds if you want to play in both PGA scratch and PGA handicap tours.  Not sure how many would want to play in both tours?  They would both be run differently and use different courses each week. 

[frank70]

Yeah, an additional handicap tour. But why scratch the mouse tour? There are quite some players playing in it.

[zmax - sim]

Theres only so much time in a week to play.  we would  need another admin if we keep the RTSM tour.  and too many tours would dilute the player base.  

[frank70]

zmax - sim, on 07 Jan 2017 - 10:21 PM, said:

Theres only so much time in a week to play. we would need another admin if we keep the RTSM tour. and too many tours would dilute the player base.

There are currently way more players playing in the mouse tour tournament than in the handicap controller tournament.

Why then cancel the mouse tour?

And looking at the rather poor participation in the controller tournament: maybe a handicap system isn't even that good for a higher participation after all?!

[Affo]

You may find if you run both a PGA Gross and a PGA Handicap, that the Tour Pros might go for the Gross Tour and the other levels may edge towards the Handicap Tour?

 

Just a thought, obviously some lower levels may want to play in gross and Tour Pros in Handicap and hopefully more want to play in both...just my take on that matter, but could be a solution?

[Dazmaniac]

That's why I said use the scores submitted on the gross tour for the handicap tour.

Players are entered in to both by default and they can concentrate on one or both as they see fit.

Avoids extra playing during a tournament week. Just needs the Handicap Tour to pull the scores from the Gross Tour and then apply the handicaps.

The coding might not be simple, but Avoids folks having to play twice.

If I played and was more interested in the Handicap Tour, my scores would still appear on both tours but I could concentrate on my Handicap game and just let the Gross one take care of itself.

[StoneComet]

Hello Z,

 

Not to push back too much but why create an additional tour when you could add the handicap feature to all tours. I see the addition of handicap leader boards and weekly handicap winners, in all tours, as an additional draw to the existing Gross tours not as something to be implemented separately. Your call though.

 

SC 

[zmax - sim]

Thanks guys for all your input.  If we implement anything it will be at the start of the new season, around beginning of March.

 

Here's one idea to throw into the mix.  What about keeping the PGA Tour as is but we run a handicap tournament for all levels alongside the regular PGA events once or twice a month?  Handicaps events will get FedEx points also.

[Dazmaniac]

Z,

 

Always best to try things out. Wouldn't expect anything to be implemented straight away,

 

Could you just pull the current scores from the PGA Tour event and push those to a Handicap Tour leaderboard to see how it works? You could maybe use existing PGA Tour events as Q-School rounds to allow folks to submit rounds for handicap unless you intend to start everyone on the same value.

 

Example. If I play at Pro and score 72, 69, 74 and 68 in the current PGA Tour setup and I have a handicap of +2 on the Handicap Tour would be 74, 71, 76 and 70. My handicap is adjusted based on the scores of 74, 71, 76 and 70.

 

I have effectively played on 2 Tours but only had to submit one lot of scores. No extra rounds to be setup by OGT and no extra rounds needed to be played by me. Likelihood is majority won't 'sandbag' as purposely shooting higher to get a better handicap will also impact on the PGA Tour scores. You may get one or two sandbaggers, it goes with the territory of using handicaps.

[zmax - sim]

Dazmaniac, on 08 Jan 2017 - 7:22 PM, said:

Z,

 

Always best to try things out. Wouldn't expect anything to be implemented straight away,

 

Could you just pull the current scores from the PGA Tour event and push those to a Handicap Tour leaderboard to see how it works? You could maybe use existing PGA Tour events as Q-School rounds to allow folks to submit rounds for handicap unless you intend to start everyone on the same value.

 

Example. If I play at Pro and score 72, 69, 74 and 68 in the current PGA Tour setup and I have a handicap of +2 on the Handicap Tour would be 74, 71, 76 and 70. My handicap is adjusted based on the scores of 74, 71, 76 and 70.

 

I have effectively played on 2 Tours but only had to submit one lot of scores. No extra rounds to be setup by OGT and no extra rounds needed to be played by me. Likelihood is majority won't 'sandbag' as purposely shooting higher to get a better handicap will also impact on the PGA Tour scores. You may get one or two sandbaggers, it goes with the territory of using handicaps.

 

Daz,

 

Our simulator tour is already doing exactly as you suggested.  Guys play one tournament and their are two separate leaderboards (GROSS and NET).  2 Winners each week.  Problem is the code is on a separate site.  The main OGT site would require a lot of changes and too much for work to have the same thing.

 

Our handicap system is exactly as the USGA.  It will use best 10 out of 20 rounds.  It will also only use ESC (equitable stroke control) scores.  i.e. if you shot a 78 but you had a 10 on hole 3, which was a par 4, your ESC score was probably a 74.  The handicap system will use 74 instead of 78.  Which helps with sandbagging.

 

Also, the handicap system has already been turned on for the PGA Tour.  We already have every player's handicap.  Tournaments just aren't using them at the moment.  With the tour staying as a GROSS tour, handicaps will mostly be based on those GROSS events. Players still need to play well in GROSS tournaments to earn FedEx points and WGR points.  So, when we do run a handicap tournament, handicaps will reflect players real abilities, IMO.  And there won't be any incentives to sandbag in a handicapped tournament.  Besides, we will use ESC scores.

 

Perhaps we'll run a couple handicapped exhibition tournaments on the PGA tour to see it will look.

[zmax - sim]

Big changes coming to OGT Tours.  Playoffs will start in February and we'll conclude the current season end of Feb.  New tours will start in early March.  This will mean fresh start for everybody in terms of stats.  Site will look different.  One key feature will be the addition of both gross and net leaderboards/winners for each tournament in a handicap tour.

[frank70]

zmax - sim, on 24 Jan 2017 - 9:52 PM, said:

Big changes coming to OGT Tours.  Playoffs will start in February and we'll conclude the current season end of Feb.  New tours will start in early March.  This will mean fresh start for everybody in terms of stats.  Site will look different.  One key feature will be the addition of both gross and net leaderboards/winners for each tournament in a handicap tour.

Will we have different tour rankings for gross and net as well?

 

How will the WGR be calculated? Gross or net scores? (And would it be a good idea to implement a higher divisor than 12 to encourage regularly play?)

[zmax - sim]

You will have a NET tour ranking and also a GROSS tour ranking.  WGR will be based on GROSS leaderboard.

 

As for the divisor, i think is 12 is fine.  But we'll look at it.

[zmax - sim]

If you haven't already noticed, current PGA event at Torrey Pines is using PWTP (Play with the Pros).  OGT Leaderboard will show PGA players and their real time hole by hole scoring.