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My Apologies to all in the 3C Crowd


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#81 DennisHarris

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 06:25 PM

And then: We are only talking about the highest difficulty level. Who is hindering anybody playing in tourneys on amateur or beginner level? The setups there are easier (wind, stimp).

No we are not just talking the highest difficulty level.  What happens in the game at the top being made more difficult affects  for every level across the board..   The game as a platform is shared by everyone at all difficulty levels.  So what happens at the top also filters down to all difficulty levels.  That is because of elite players talking about PGA tour stats  and this games Tour Pro stats. Tour Pro difficulty of this game via stats comparison to PGA Tour statistics is voodoo mathematics at work not anything else.

LOL! Stimps of 12, 11 etc. are used at Amateur level.  However Winds are not different and that is by all the comparisons unrealistic to those  precious PGA Tour stats.   I told everyone the pandering is certainly glaringly obvious toward the elite players.    Nothing can change the obvious.  Notice fewer and fewer players are playing the OGT and PG tournaments.  Anyone ask why.   Or are folks scared to ask. 


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#82 frank70

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 06:52 PM

No we are not just talking the highest difficulty level.  What happens in the game at the top being made more difficult affects  for every level across the board..   The game as a platform is shared by everyone at all difficulty levels.  So what happens at the top also filters down to all difficulty levels.  That is because of elite players talking about PGA tour stats  and this games Tour Pro stats. Tour Pro difficulty of this game via stats comparison to PGA Tour statistics is voodoo mathematics at work not anything else.

LOL! Stimps of 12, 11 etc. are used at Amateur level.  However Winds are not different and that is by all the comparisons unrealistic to those  precious PGA Tour stats.   I told everyone the pandering is certainly glaringly obvious toward the elite players.    Nothing can change the obvious.  Notice fewer and fewer players are playing the OGT and PG tournaments.  Anyone ask why.   Or are folks scared to ask. 

Obviously it isn't necessary to ramp up the conditions and as a consequence the difficulty in the lower levels. Never was my intention (or probably anybodies). Everybody should have fun with the game and i am sure the devs will take care of that.

 

P.S.: I am all for throwing at least one round under calm condition or/and one round with soft greens into the tourney setup. That is realistic. Gusty winds are an outlier in real life - so it should be an outlier in the game too (independently of difficult level). And if we do really want to look critically at scoring it would be best under realistic weather conditions (mostly calm and breezy).



#83 clubcaptain

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 09:02 PM

"And if we do really want to look critically at scoring it would be best under realistic weather conditions (mostly calm and breezy)."

It's a mixture of the leeway or restrictions the game allows/imposes plus the decisions by tour organisers as to how playing conditions will be set. I couldn't control the former but when I ran my tour for 13 years I could certainly control the conditions, or rather consult mother nature.

Tournaments were played Thursday to Friday and 90% of the courses used were real renditions. I took weather conditions out of my own hands by simply lokking at the 4 day weather forecast for the site of the real course and using the in game options to mimic them as near as possible. So if the tournament was in Florida, sunshine all the way, conditions were probably going to  be mild winds with a mixture of normal and hard ground conditions.

If the tournament was the Scottish Open then conditions were likely to be medium to strong winds with soft to normal ground conditions.


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#84 Stephen Sullivan

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 10:02 PM

I have been assisting MimicPS over at LSPN European Tour for about the last 18 months. Like you clubcaptain we look at the weather for the real event and try and match the weather and conditions to the actual location.  I find all this "it's emulating the PGA Tour so the conditions must be fierce" deeply distasteful. I am not sure what the pins are like as a whole, but I wouldn't fancy tackling some of them on the stimp speeds mentioned, and wouldn't even consider those speeds if I wanted to use those pins.

It's all down to consideration and common sense  :)


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#85 Ted_Ball

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 12:08 AM

We already have a provision to make PG hard at the top level. You have to change TourPro to 'Customised' and make the difficulty Off/Off.
 
I'm wondering why it matters if there is an inequality between 3C and MS and even if there is a profound difference between the difficulty of the swings. 
 
As Frank stated he got better over time through experience with club knowledge and how the ball reacts on the green and in the wind. His scores at Shadowland in the TourPro tournament weren't that crazy low. He had a 67 in the second round probably because he missed more fairways. His putting stats are low and that's where his consistently low scores are being generated. I think you would have to acknowledge his credibility when he states that putting is too easy. The point I'm making here is that Perfect Golf is actually pretty close to being on par with the real game notwithstanding lack of wind effect on putting and deteriorating greens and with a bit more 'experience' players can start to approach scores in the mid to low range.
 
The other point is that an individual player can come to terms with any aspect of the game and become skilled at driving, or approaching, or scrambling from the rough, or bunker play, or putting (short or long) and their scores will tumble irrespective of which swing method they choose.
 
I'm not sure how you would make putting harder though without the introduction of the real life influences and maybe it's an argument that has run it's course. The rest of the game is just about spot on from my viewpoint and my scores. There is a genuine argument for not making the game too difficult to bring scores in line with real life - nevertheless there is a very good argument for making ball reactions realistic.

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#86 Armand

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 03:05 AM

I played one round of 3C tour pro (off/off) the other day - the first I've ever played with PG versus my 130 HMS rounds at Tour Pro (off/off).   That one round saw me take 92 strokes and I had stats that were generally consistent with my HMS rounds.  Yes, there were some 3C snaps that I didn't think were too far off and the result was a bit on the extreme side, but generally, I found it reasonable for what I expect Tour Pro level to be.  I haven't played 2C or 3C in any capacity since 1997.  I did play 2C or 3C between 1991 and 1997, though, so it wasn't a completely unknown swing mechanic for me.  I'm not sure how else to incorporate the factors influencing MS shots with the 3C method - it just seems we need to ignore one or two of the factors or keep them all influencing.  I don't have any other suggestions.

 

As for the current flow in the thread (and I think this is off topic), the inequality between swing methods and scoring should really be made by EVERYONE against EVERYONE.  Someone uses MS, someone edges, someone has a better computer, a better simulator set up, a better mouse, a better monitor/graphics card, better reflexes, no physical disabilities, faster internet, play with 3C, play using a Xbox controller, play with simplified putting, using RTS, using MS, using a macro to swing, cheating, etc., etc.  There is no way that any two players have the exact same circumstances to play their games/rounds - and so there is always an inequality.  We only pretend to make things fair by trying to ensure others play with the same preferences that we have.  Even with the same settings/preferences, it's not equality - and it never will be.

 

I think the game is plenty challenging without aids.  I also think most of us are too proud to shoot high scores, hence we rely on the aids to get us around the courses with scores under or near par  (maybe because we've always been good at computer games or maybe because we were decent at the real game).  Few players want and are satisfied shooting over par and therefore, aids are added to our playing preferences to ensure we don't!  It's our egos and the search for so-called equality that makes us turn on aids.  And to be clear, I'm perfectly fine with players doing that.  We should all use whatever aids necessary to get the results we want.

 

If our goal is to achieve higher/more realistic scores, I think it can be achieved by setting our egos aside and turning off the aids that allow us to make the low scores.  If we're satisfied struggling to +3 or +13, great!  If not, we can add aids to adjust our scoring to what we feel is satisfactory.  If we're not satisfied shooting -7, again, turn on aids so that we become satisfied with our score.  If our goal is to be at the top of the leaderboard, then we need to adjust the aids to help us get there, we need to practice our butts off so we can improve, or we can employ a combination of both until we reach that goal.  If putting stats show that putting "too easy" (or too much exact information is provided) in our minds, it is in our complete control to change that within our game play preferences.

 

Some may argue, "but what if we're in a tournament against others - it won't be fair if I can't aim in the top view and he can" (for example).  I say, suck it up and go shoot whatever we can based on our playing preferences because it will never be fair/equal.  But I also say, if our aim is to make everyone (in a tournament or everyone in general) use our preferences, then we should vie for all others to use the same preferences we have.  As said many times before, in the end we all should play however makes us enjoy the game.  There is nothing wrong with vying to get others to accept and even use our preferences with game play, just beware that this is not likely going to fly with many players!


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#87 karma4u

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 03:28 AM

 

 

 There is nothing wrong with vying to get others to accept and even use our preferences with game play, just beware that this is not likely going to fly with many players! 

So, i just grabbed this.......BUT, please read the whole post...Probably, one of the most sensible, thought out posts that i have read...........So very well said..........Cheers.....


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#88 footslogger

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 03:32 AM

Exactly, I'm not concerned what others shoot either.

 

I play casually, using standard equipment . I know the tricks one can use to improve scores, but have no interest in playing games that way. And when Career Mode is eventually released, the playing field will be normalized and all will be good.

As someone who only plays offline (and that will be the same as the majority of people who buy this game) I heartily endorse your comments, especially with regard to a career mode.



#89 Ted_Ball

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 03:32 AM

Well said Armand.

 

The more I think about it the more I see full handicap events becoming the popular ones. I can even see handicap tournaments including all assist levels even if they aren't playing in the same tournament api. 



#90 frank70

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 07:22 AM

  • get the physics of the short game right
  • look at the responsiveness of the cups (maybe not enough lip outs?)
  • lessen the penalty of the long game for the 3-clickers a little, little bit

 

Would that be good for everybody on Tour Pro?

 

Actually the whole point i am making about realism and statistics isn't really about the tournaments. It is more about the career mode that will come sometime down the road. This will be a very individual experience. In this mode i do not want to be able to shoot -40 in a 72 hole tournament because that would take totally away the immersion.

 

Would sliders for offline play be possible (only for practice, solo play and career mode)? Many games have them. The values of penalty for the different swings/shots or the penalties playing out of the rough are in the game (console?). It would be great if you could adjust these values via sliders. In that way everybody could tinker the game in a way that suits him - only for offline game modes.


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#91 FreeBolt

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 09:24 AM

I don't think one can compare, one swing type to another. They are what they are in there own right, be it good or bad. When this new RTS comes out, I would think it safe to say just about all the low scores will come from people playing it. Then there will be thread after thread all about that. As far as tournaments to help keep the drama down, they would have to be based on swing type. it's not a good idea to put the fox in the hen house, they are bound to fight.



#92 Greensboronclion

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 12:15 PM

Well said Armand.

 

The more I think about it the more I see full handicap events becoming the popular ones. I can even see handicap tournaments including all assist levels even if they aren't playing in the same tournament api. 

Ted as I have been going back in forth in messaging with another poster I do believe the best handicap system would be the 75% one based on your scores and this would open the field to many players at any level and make it very competitive and fun also.  I hope when we get to that point the tour adminstraters listen to all of our ideas and come up with a great way to do it but if you did it like Country Clubs do IRL it would be a great system.


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#93 DennisHarris

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 01:15 PM

 

  • get the physics of the short game right
  • look at the responsiveness of the cups (maybe not enough lip outs?)
  • lessen the penalty of the long game for the 3-clickers a little, little bit

 

Would that be good for everybody on Tour Pro?

 

Actually the whole point i am making about realism and statistics isn't really about the tournaments. It is more about the career mode that will come sometime down the road. This will be a very individual experience. In this mode i do not want to be able to shoot -40 in a 72 hole tournament because that would take totally away the immersion.

 

Would sliders for offline play be possible (only for practice, solo play and career mode)? Many games have them. The values of penalty for the different swings/shots or the penalties playing out of the rough are in the game (console?). It would be great if you could adjust these values via sliders. In that way everybody could tinker the game in a way that suits him - only for offline game modes.

My 93 year old dad (in his old school wisdom) said the game is fine ..... as is ..... it is the golfers responsibility to adjust to the game.  Not the game adjusted to the golfer.    Food for thought.   Adjust to the game we have, not the one we envision it to be. 


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#94 highfade

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 01:36 PM

The game as far as long, short game, flopping chipping, pitching and putting is still  lob-sided. We're still in EA stage. The developers are doing new things and tweaking old things every day to make the game better.  Why would anyone  except the current version as the final product?


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#95 ProFirefighter

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 01:49 PM

As someone who only plays offline (and that will be the same as the majority of people who buy this game) I heartily endorse your comments, especially with regard to a career mode.

 

Thanks FL.

 

I've played PC games long enough (Sports, FPS, etc.) to know what can be done to "enhance" scoring. But it's not my style and I have no interest playing that way. I usually avoid multiplayer at all costs, but I must say OGT does a fine job with their tournaments. Honestly, without them I'd have no reason to play PG until Career Mode is implemented.


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#96 Armand

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 01:59 PM

As I noted, I'm reasonably satisfied with the current game.  Of course, there can be improvements so I'm not suggesting we accept the game as is and have it released as final.  I look forward to the game tweaks that make it more realistic (which in turn generally makes the PC game harder, in my opinion).

 

I agree with frank70's point about the short game physics/spin.  The 3C snap, although a bit harsh on occasion is OK in my mind.  Still, if it is softened a bit, I won't protest (and I normally don't play 3C, so my opinion is probably not worth very much!).  I don't get many lip outs in the game, but I do have my share of putts roll over the edge (mostly the left edge).  There are many more putts that (to me) are moved into a groove/slot at the last 6 inches toward the hole and fall in the center instead of dropping from the left/right edge or perhaps lipping out.  Nonetheless, all of these can and should be tweaked so they become more realistic (and probably more difficult).

 

I'm fairly certain I'm not DennisHarris' dad (!), but I set my game preferences in the manner he describes.   



#97 frank70

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 08:52 PM

They updated the stats at OGT for the Tour Pro Tour (great job guys!!). It's the putting, the sand saves and to a lesser extend the scrambling. The long game stats look pretty good for the mouse swingers. The 3-clickers are struggling there a little bit so there penalty for the long game should be reduced a little bit.

The physics for the short game should still be looked at.

#98 zmax - sim

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 08:55 PM

The physics for the short game should still be looked at.

 

Looked at....:)


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#99 Greensboronclion

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 11:41 PM

They updated the stats at OGT for the Tour Pro Tour (great job guys!!). It's the putting, the sand saves and to a lesser extend the scrambling. The long game stats look pretty good for the mouse swingers. The 3-clickers are struggling there a little bit so there penalty for the long game should be reduced a little bit.

The physics for the short game should still be looked at.

I am really starting to believe the penalty is not the problem with the snap with 3C for the long game and for that matter for MS but more of the conditions we are playing in.  Look I like a challenge as much as the next person but I for one am sick and tired of playing every round in US Open conditions with the wind up every single round and that has a big help in keeping the stats for the long game down as you have to constantly adjust for the wind.  I just got done playing Golden Meadows Rd 3 in another Hurricane and the stimp up to 14 with difficult pins and it really was not any fun at all as it was more like work and keeping the ball in the short stuff was tough but that is good when its once in a tourney but every round is like that and its doing more for killing stats than anything else.  I have gone to many Pro events and I can tell you the Tour Pros have never dealt with that much wind and if they did their stats would be pretty bad to.  Just my opinion and if you test the swings in calm conditions I think you will find that they penalty is not as bad as you think but turn the wind up and there she blows.



#100 Ted_Ball

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 01:10 AM

It's a good point you make G.................Why would you choose to make things that difficult? What is the reason? I hope it's not simply to raise the scores. Frustration in a golf game is a huge motivation killer.  It's like choosing to play in the dust storm option. Why? I certainly wouldn't like playing 3C from the tee in a severe crosswind hole.

 

Generally I would set conditions in my forum tournaments with easier pins and calm winds for the first one or two rounds and gradually increase the difficulty until the final round had difficult pins but not necessarily high winds. I didn't even make the greens much faster or the course much harder in the last round. I felt it was better to ease players into the tournament, maintain their interest and allow them to gain experience (again) on the course in the early rounds.  The contest remains.

 

It might be better to assess the course ratings on mean scores (or average scores - whatever the correct one is) and not worry about the blokes who shoot 61s.


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