188 replies to this topic

[StoneComet]

Here is a glimpse of the caddy book I'm creating for my home course, East Sussex National - West. I just use notepad and alt-tab out to access it. Still wish this was simply in the game and could be called up but this works for me for a caddy book.

 

[bortimus]

Visual strategies for BARE putting.

Long read ahead.  This looks like a lot of info to deal with because I'm trying to explain this as well as I can.

After establishing your visual cues and doing this for a few rounds it becomes automatic.  Even on the most complicated putts this can be done in 10 seconds or less.  Short to medium putts take much less time than that.         

I play my whole round from the player camera.  If you use the low player camera or alter the F5 camera closer/farther then you will need to adjust and find something that works for you.  

For putting and the short game I use the constants that we are given every time from the default view: the ani and the flagstick.

If the flagstick is not there, simply place the aiming stick in the center of the hole.  It works the same way.

Here's what a dead straight 10 foot putt looks like with no elevation change:

   

Here's what I look for for:

Top Line:  On a putt with no net elevation change, the alignment of the top of the golfer's hat is roughly in line with the bottom of the attached portion of the flag.  Obviously the flag drapes down farther.  Look for where the flag ends on the flagstick.  Change your aim slightly to get a better look at this if you need to and then go back to aiming at the center of the cup.  My head relative to this position tells me the the degree of uphill/downhill and gives me an idea of how much I should alter my break line and aggressiveness. 

 

Boxed Area:  The break of the slope immediately around the golfer.  If there is no break, the stick will intersect your golfer just above the eyebrow as you can see in the picture.  If the stick is farther right (toward the bill of the cap), there is right to left break.  If it's to the left (towards the nose) there is left to right break.  The degree of break is seen by how far away the stick aligns from your eyebrow.  It takes some practice to feel how far to aim.  This is really useful for short to medium putts that look flat.  The stick alignment will give you some clues on which direction to hedge your aim.

If needed, I also look at the F4 camera (behind the hole) to get an idea of the break near the cup.  This helps with putts that have a late unexpected break.  For long putts, you can typically estimate the slopes of the swales or ridges well enough just by looking at them from your default view.  The F5 freecam is always an option as well.

 

Cup to Body Line:  This is your length of putt clue.  A 10 foot putt will line up near the bottom of the putter grip.  I use various physical landmarks on the ani to get an idea of the putt length.  

Here's a flat 20 footer:

See how the cup is now aligned near the top edge of my glove?  That's my 20 foot mark.  The other two alignments are the same.  Duh, flat green...

Here's a 10 foot putt that looks like it has a little left to right break at first glance.  When looking at my facial alignment, it has quite a bit more break than I initially thought.    

 

The next post will show how this applies to longer putts with more severe elevation changes.   

[bortimus]

Here's a fairly long putt.  All the same visual cues will help you get this comfortably close to the hole.

Quick read:

It's obviously uphill (the distance my head is below the attached part of flag tells me it's a significant rise.  At least a foot from my estimation) 

It starts with some right to left break (flagstick to the right of my eyebrow).  I would also read behind this putt with F4 to find clues on any late breaks.  

It "plays" like a 60 foot-ish putt.  See the white PP logo on my shirt? That's my 60 foot-ish mark.  

This putt is actually a 46' putt with 16'' of elevation change, so it does in fact play close to a 60' putt on 12 stimp greens.  The cup-to-body distance estimation works out pretty well even with the elevation change skewing your perspective of the cup.  Adjust accordingly for different stimps.

 

One more example:

     

Quick read:

Top of hat well above bottom of flag.  Very downhill putt.  Probably a foot or more of elevation change.   

Starts with right to left break.  Need to aim well outside and die it to the hole.  F4 will tell me more about the area around the cup.

It "plays" like a 40 footer (based on my cup-to-body alignment) 

 

This putt is 54' and goes downhill 15''.   It will actually play shorter than a 40 footer on 12 stimp, so I will use a little less than 40' of power to avoid running it well past the hole.  

In general, on downhill putts you have to take a little more off the putt than your cup-to-body distance shows.  On uphill putts the cup-to-body distance estimation works out pretty well.

 

All you need to do now is figure out what cup-to-body references work for you.  With practice the breaks and elevation changes will become second nature to read.  

You will get fooled and miss putts.  Short ones even.  You should.  It's golf.  

  

So there you have it.  That's the best I can do with how to quickly read putts with absolutely no information on the screen.  If anyone needs anything clarified just let me know.  

Have fun and good luck! 

[RobC]

So...Is this JNPG version of Aimpoint

[bortimus]

I guess so haha.  It actually works pretty well in the game

[Ted_Ball]

Good work bortimus.

 

Thanks for that. I'm on it.

[bortimus]

Thanks Ted.  

 

Hopefully here's more "goo" work haha

 

A few quick short game ideas:  

Using the ani and the flagstick from the default player view, you can fairly accurately estimate your distance from the hole.  This relationship remains true as long as you don't zoom in or out.  You can use F5 and move a little side to side or up and down if it helps to get your ani in a better viewing position.

I use the size of the hat in comparison to the flagstick for chips, pitches, and sand shots.  As always, finding your own references is the best way.  Remember, sloped lies will alter your head position so take that into account.   

 

A few examples:

For me, if the hat equals the height of the flagstick below the flag, I'm about 60 feet away for a pitch shot. 

  

At around 33 yards away, the hat is about equal to the whole flagstick.

 

 

One thing that might help with the awkward distances from 40-65 yards: 

Take your mouse cursor and hold it up next to the flag from 40, 50,  and 60 yards away.  How does the cursor size compare to the flag at those distances?  Try to remember what these look like and work from there.  A few of these approximate distances can save you strokes if you leave yourself in a bad spot.    

[Armand]

Ted, just to clarify things for the conditions at my home course (Carrch Loch), can you please set the conditions the same for all players (going forward):

Champ Tees, Windy, Hard Conditions, Difficult Pins, Stimp 9, Overcast, Chance of Rain, Active Weather ON

 

This is a bit of a combination of both previous conditions, and I thank Quadet and yourself for playing at those previously nominated conditions.

[StoneComet]

Love the conditions you settled on Armand. With the anti-cheat debacle clearing for now I can refocus my practice and finish out the back 9 of my Home Course's Caddy Book which I plan to try and make available to anyone interested. Again the forces of nature or the Universe seemed to be against me. I had a major power outage less than 24 hours ago. I'm finally finding some time to play.

 

I wanted to post a testimonial to BARE play and the BARE play concept.   

 

I really like the format. A member of "The BARE Golfing Fellowship", suggested title, gets to choose a "Home Course". For all intensive purposes this creates a virtual "Clubhouse" for that course using the BARE MOP. As far as I understand you can even join another member and choose the same "Home Course" or "Clubhouse".

 

Right now some of us already have a decent knack posting scores in the 70's of all things, very close to Sub-Par scores. Others are in the 80's with me trailing and trying to break 100. But it's the pace of the play that I am really enjoying. I'm spending a lot of time on the range when I am on and practicing my "Home Course" and creating a personal caddy book. I'm just about ready to start finishing off the challenges.

 

I've also spent some time exploring the other "Clubhouses" that have embraced BARE at least for now. I'm sure as things settle in we could even have "Clubhouses" host Tournaments over a 2 week period. I suggest the Bi-monthly schedule for any future Tournament play because of the nature of BARE and it's MOP.

 

I like the idea of what I will call the "Challenge Circuit" where we square off head to head against a selected rival. What we are doing right now. These 2 player rounds could even be played together and recorded or broadcast live. You could even record and add Broadcast Commentary later to produce an interesting video for release. I could even see players playing live rounds in larger groups. A player could defend against all the selected rivals at once if they could coordinate it.

 

Which leads me to loving the idea of having one set of conditions per "Challenge Circuit" cycle to emulate the idea that all those selected to play a certain course are playing on the same day in the same conditions other than minor pin variations. The "Challenge  Circuit" cycle is more of an organic process and runs it's course over time until all challenge play is completed with perhaps ultimately some encouragement to finish from the top. I am really loving this MOP even though it has a few minor failings. If we can start building a coalition of players that enjoy this style of play perhaps we could push for an Adjustable HUD. In the end what I think we should push for are a few basics.

 

A simple wind direction indicator. We know the general wind conditions and experienced players know what those conditions are capable of. We only really need direction; some kind of wind sock or even a simple direction icon center top with no strength indications. I think we should also push for setting the bottom right to reveal club in hand with a stock distance only and shot type with the ability to program the mouse or developers program the ability to access shot types with simple mouse controls or buttons. Everything else is BARE.

 

The reason I believe we should have club in hand with stock distance is to simply have a stock reference point. You never get distance to the cup marker or anything unless that is naturally derived from visual cues you only get the reference for the club stock carry distance. The club information should be an option to turn on/off. This will help greatly in attracting more BARE players.

 

Same thing goes for the wind direction only indicator. Players should have the ability to turn it off but I cannot imagine why a player would as it is simply wind direction, a critical piece of information in high winds. I will say that I do pay attention to the wind indicator when I have to access the  HUD for other reasons. 

 

Ultimately all of those adjustments should be lockable for competitive play. Simple for the reason that the ability to lock settings like these will greatly help attract more BARE players. Locked conditions leave little doubt to the validity of the competitions especially for players considering entering the BARE world. I'm perfectly fine with the "Fair Play" code we follow but I bet a  fair amount of the player base will not be fine; that is my personal opinion.

 

These are my personal observations and suggestions so far. Baring any of that I still like BARE play over other MOP so much that my entire focus is BARE play right now.

 

Finally the real testimonial. I really like to play video golf games in this fashion. Not because I have an intent in holding this MOP over and above any others. It is simply because of the immersion factor. I'm not talking about realism, I'm talking about simulated realism within my imagination which immersion is a main contributing factor too. I quite simply just enjoy playing in this type of fashion even though at times it frustrates and confuses and in some ways self imposes a handicap on a player and the information given that would, in some cases, normally be more intuitive and obvious. When I play a hole well though and there is as little as there can be between my avatar and the interfacing aspect of the game; well there are not many more greater pleasures in gaming from my experience.

 

Thanks Ted,

 

StoneComet 

[Armand]

I went out to East Sussex West to replay the round from the Championship tees.  Thanks to the 'committee' for allowing me to replay, although I will still accept any penalty deemed appropriate for my miscue.

 

I was hoping that having one round under my belt at the course would offset any increase in score due to playing from the Championship tees.  The course gave a few different looks, but overall, I played reasonably well for me.  I royally messed up a couple of holes (#12 and #15).  It seems #12 gave me grief in both rounds - I was even trying to play safe in my second go-around.  Scorecard/stats and a video of the round are shown below (YouTube allows you to watch at up to 2x speed, so if you're inclined, that will save you some time!):

 

 

Edited by Armand, 14 August 2016 - 06:56 PM.

[Armand]

Played my first (ever) round at my 'home course' today and shot 46-41=87 to tie with Quadet.  I used the same conditions as Quadet did, which were my previous 1st round settings. 

 

For anyone interested, the scorecard/stats and video (I suggest watching at 2x speed) follow:

 

https://youtu.be/T9TlX-XVH18

[Ted_Ball]

I agree wind is an important factor and the 'Shadow' technique is less than Perfect. I'm inclined to allow a quick look at the wind indicator - maybe only on the tee - which also could be used for info on hole number, score, and hole length. After all, that latter info is generally provided at the tee. 

 

Yardages are necessary. I'm thinking about real life, which I do occasionally, and, never having a caddy, I would simply estimate approach shot distances from the fairway through yardage markers (probably 20% of the time), instinct and experience. It was inexact. In the current version of JNPG we only have the last two (apart from Club Schwarz). I've started making a yardage book for Medinah although it's a bit tedious but it doesn't have to be on every hole and only from a landmark around the approach distance after a good drive.

 

I'm impressed with Bortimus's distance estimator technique - and I'm tempted to use it - but the purist in me wants to learn how to read distances just by looking. It's foolishly an*l of me and, come to think of it, my technique is not dissimilar to Bortimus in that I judge the distance by the size of the pin or whatever. Further self-anal-ysis reveals that I want to go out and play like I did in real life. And that is without anything but a badly-designed and cheap cardboard scorecard.

[Brendan]

bortimus, on 12 Aug 2016 - 3:18 PM, said:

Visual strategies for BARE putting.

Long read ahead.  This looks like a lot of info to deal with because I'm trying to explain this as well as I can.

After establishing your visual cues and doing this for a few rounds it becomes automatic.  Even on the most complicated putts this can be done in 10 seconds or less.  Short to medium putts take much less time than that.         

I play my whole round from the player camera.  If you use the low player camera or alter the F5 camera closer/farther then you will need to adjust and find something that works for you.  

For putting and the short game I use the constants that we are given every time from the default view: the ani and the flagstick.

If the flagstick is not there, simply place the aiming stick in the center of the hole.  It works the same way.

Here's what a dead straight 10 foot putt looks like with no elevation change:

   

Here's what I look for for:

Top Line:  On a putt with no net elevation change, the alignment of the top of the golfer's hat is roughly in line with the bottom of the attached portion of the flag.  Obviously the flag drapes down farther.  Look for where the flag ends on the flagstick.  Change your aim slightly to get a better look at this if you need to and then go back to aiming at the center of the cup.  My head relative to this position tells me the the degree of uphill/downhill and gives me an idea of how much I should alter my break line and aggressiveness. 

 

Boxed Area:  The break of the slope immediately around the golfer.  If there is no break, the stick will intersect your golfer just above the eyebrow as you can see in the picture.  If the stick is farther right (toward the bill of the cap), there is right to left break.  If it's to the left (towards the nose) there is left to right break.  The degree of break is seen by how far away the stick aligns from your eyebrow.  It takes some practice to feel how far to aim.  This is really useful for short to medium putts that look flat.  The stick alignment will give you some clues on which direction to hedge your aim.

If needed, I also look at the F4 camera (behind the hole) to get an idea of the break near the cup.  This helps with putts that have a late unexpected break.  For long putts, you can typically estimate the slopes of the swales or ridges well enough just by looking at them from your default view.  The F5 freecam is always an option as well.

 

Cup to Body Line:  This is your length of putt clue.  A 10 foot putt will line up near the bottom of the putter grip.  I use various physical landmarks on the ani to get an idea of the putt length.  

Here's a flat 20 footer:

See how the cup is now aligned near the top edge of my glove?  That's my 20 foot mark.  The other two alignments are the same.  Duh, flat green...

Here's a 10 foot putt that looks like it has a little left to right break at first glance.  When looking at my facial alignment, it has quite a bit more break than I initially thought.    

 

The next post will show how this applies to longer putts with more severe elevation changes.   

thanks Bortimus - trying this in a NAP round - works brilliantly. Says a lot about the effort you put in to things working this out. It also says a lot about you that you would share it - thanks again

[Ted_Ball]

Scorecard is up                             here.

 

I'm fooling around with my normal mouse swing trying to get a natural path shape by 'imitating' the dude. I had a nice draw going for ages but lately the old push/slice is emerging. To get that draw back I've had to turn my hand in and sort of sideways slide it. That's when I noticed I could bring the mouse back on a similar path to the dude. A little inside on the backswing and even a slight curve around to the left on the forward swing. 

 

I decided to investigate further with RTS Horizontal and I found the swing path of the mouse could be curved throughout the swing to draw - or fade. It was more like a real swing in that I was aligned like I would be IRL and the clubhead path was similar to a real right hand swing. I even set the F5 behind the dude to further enhance the immersion. But that's too much a pain in the arse for this lazy semi-retiree.

 

I know all of the above has been mentioned before on the forum but I wanted to raise it again in our context.

 

I'm going to go and do more practice with the RTS-H and see if I can refine it. 

 

More later on wind etc.

[Ted_Ball]

Well blow me down.

 

RTS-H where have you been hiding all my life.

 

Very natural hand and mouse path with the adjustments of the path for draw and fade being obvious and simple. I'm using the same anchor technique with the whole of the wrist area anchored. The consistency is noticeable already (famous last words).

[Ted_Ball]

I'm happy with an 84 at home using RTS-H for the first full round. It included some Els-like putting ridiculousness as well - so I'm actually quite amazed how good it feels and how much potential it has. No cheats here. Moving the ball is too much fun.

 

I'm going to open up a second round where the home ground advantage will switch. It'll provide more matches for people looking for more (me).

 

'Soon' I'll have a regular chicken run 9 hole stableford comp and I'll handicap everyone utilizing the Ted Ball Simpleman's Handicap System. Frozen chooks left over from the last time as prizes.

[Ted_Ball]

Matches are now open for the second half of the season. Home grounds are reversed for each match from the first half of the season.

 

Click this.........BARE

[StoneComet]

Ted_Ball ,

 

For me horizontal swing is the bees knees (what a weird expression). I tried vertical and almost convinced myself I like it better until I went back to make sure. It just feels so natural and I believe it is a bit easier to curl you shot. I'm excited to see what your observations are.

 

I really am enjoying both your and Bortimus's observations. Bortimus seems to have spent a lot of time examining the visual cues that are already there. I find them useful in this respect. Eventually I do not want to focus so much on those visual cues consciously but I do believe that if I pay attention to them early on just like the no-grid and no-bli putting those landmarks of club to body become more intuitive and natural. Really good stuff from some pixels on the screen.

 

I am very similar, if you have watched any of my rounds, to Ted in his approach and philosophy. The less I have to think and the more I can just play when it comes to shot execution the better. Still a thinking players game though isn't it. I prefer to, unsuccessfully  , use my thinking for course management recognizing creative shot opportunities. My thought process for shot execution is more of a rambling guess, I sound like Rainman if you could get into my head but all that chatter and calculating blurs at the end and I hit and hope.

 

I appreciate the Commissioner granting us some relief to peek at the HUD on the tee. I'll probably forget to do that sometimes but it is a nice option to have baring an adjustable HUD from PP. The reason I have decided to focus solely on BARE is that now my focus is squarely on the courses that are in the mix (8). That means I can focus on 8 courses for competitive play and I can play all those other courses casually if and when I find the time.

 

I'm trying to bring my friend Jax into the fold but I got to get him to get the game first and all those negative reviews on STEAM (some if not many probably from the "other games" player base) are not helping. I'm wanting to post some positive reviews but until RTSC gets sorted and left stick bug fix and some more Anies and a left handed golfer; all those have to be added or corrected before I can do so in good conscience. This is true even though I am a RTSH mouse swing convert. I promote the positive aspects of the game of which there are many where I can but I won't post a full review until the game gets a bit more polished.

 

As to my friend, he'll have to come to grips with the game before I try and throw him into the BARE pool. My guess is he suspects something like that already though. 

[bortimus]

The use of those particular visual cues may not be everyone's preference and I totally understand that.  I'm glad they are of help in some way if you choose to use them.  

I wanted to dismiss the idea that playing with nothing on the screen was essentially "blindfolded" golf and a crapshoot.  It's quite the opposite.  I find myself noticing more subtle things on every course now.  A good score can be had.  

 

I also wanted to have a way to play very quickly (but still focused) and without fiddling with the F5 camera.  I think having to adjust the freecam can be a turnoff to some players.  Frankly you don't even have to use it and you can still become a pretty good scrambler and putter.     

 

Playing BARE does a wonderful job of getting away from mathgolf and restores the challenge of the short game and putting.  No more routine up and downs.  Being in a bad visual position should be a disadvantage.  All of this influences decision making from the tee and on approach shots.  Good stuff.      

[Ted_Ball]

I'm amazed that I was so ignorant of the Horizontal benefits for so long Stone. The subtleties of small swing path adjustments and the resulting slightest of draws or the dramatic slices to get out of trouble all feel natural and effective and as an added bonus seems like a real swing and looks like a real swing from your perspective looking at the mouse from above. (I feel sorry for left-handed people. So many things to add to this game before anti-cheat programs.) I even have a little waggle and it looks like a little waggle (famous last words). I haven't felt more comfortable standing over a shot than with RTS-H.

 

I refuse to be a BAREnforcer and everyone can make there own moral judgements re the wind gauge. I tried pulling up the HUD on each tee but I disliked having to do it. It felt wrong - so I've gone back to full-blown BARE.

 

I also play BARE fast Bortimus. I have discarded F5 for putting and read all putts from the default view. A tough read remains a tough read and remains a tough putt. Why not? Your distance technique is invaluable and it looks like I will have to employ it for pitch shots and those 50 yard to 74 yard full shots with the 64W. Probably the hardest of shots to judge.

 

Anyway I shot a BARE 33 on the back nine at Sawgrass in practice after a horrible front nine. That experience over many previous rounds there really pays off. Watch out Joe.