316 replies to this topic

[Affo]

good read fellas, interesting points being made.

 

personally, i think a lot is to do with the courses and pin settings together with the wind types. just played merion at pgls in gusty conditions (max gusty) but with soft greens and slowish stimp. Boy was it good fun and a constant battle having to come up with different shots, low draws under the wind, high shots to ride the wind, allowing for cross winds and gusts...the result...I was a very happy camper at -4.

 

realistic scoring can be achieved, just depends on a few factors coming together, some may be by accident if admins set a particular wind direction which inadvertently makes the course much harder to play and with a few tucked away pins...bogies or worse will happen.

[frank70]

Affo, on 08 Sept 2016 - 1:40 PM, said:

good read fellas, interesting points being made.

 

personally, i think a lot is to do with the courses and pin settings together with the wind types. just played merion at pgls in gusty conditions (max gusty) but with soft greens and slowish stimp. Boy was it good fun and a constant battle having to come up with different shots, low draws under the wind, high shots to ride the wind, allowing for cross winds and gusts...the result...I was a very happy camper at -4.

 

realistic scoring can be achieved, just depends on a few factors coming together, some may be by accident if admins set a particular wind direction which inadvertently makes the course much harder to play and with a few tucked away pins...bogies or worse will happen.

Affo, i think that isn't the right way to go. A golf course - even in a game - shouldn't be protected by impossible pin positions, howling winds and concrete greens alone. That's how games like TGC handle things.

 

Give me a game where you tee it up on a calm day on pretty fast greens and still shooting Par cannot be taken for granted. The long game of JNPG is giving us this challenge. The short game does not.

 

-4 probably wasn't a realistic score under these conditions in Merion (one if not THE toughest course JNPG has to offer). -16 over 72 holes would be far, far away from the score Justin Rose shot (over par) when he won the US Open there. And the wind wasn't blowing with 40 mph.

 

I have to come back to the thread title: A realistic round of golf?

[remers]

For what it's worth Frank, I've been an almost silent supporter of your thoughts on the realism since your first posted and I've not changed my mind since then.   I agree entirely about the tweaks required for the very hardest level to ensure that it's as close to 'Perfect' as it can be.  Not sure it's going to happen though and I'm more generally concerned about the lack of feature updates or information being put out there.

 

It's no wonder that most of the forum posts take a grim turn after a while with so very little info for everyone to cling on to.

 

I'm sure that things are happening behind the scenes and that people are working their backsides off but unless existing customers and potential customers know what's going on, it may all be for nothing.

[Gemini43460]

Again, a "realistic" round of golf on a computer IS an impossible dream...simple as.  I don't care what you do to ball physics and weather, the real game of golf is controlled by the human body, with its infinite amount of difference from person to person.  It is impossible to simulate this with code in a computer program.  

 

If you want a real simulation, then you should be able to control the golfer itself.  Make him go to the gym 5x per week to work out and get stronger and add distance to his shots.  Be sure not to drink too much alcohol, and get enough carbs the night before a round, to be sure your muscle synapses are firing to their optimal levels.  The list is endless...

 

Maybe those that want change (which ultimately will NOT equate to a true "simulation") will sleep better at night if they just give up the fight for the impossible.  All I see being asked for are scores to be judged on PGA scores and equivilent.  That is not impossible with certain tweaks, but the goal of equal scores to the PGA tour should not be confused with achieving a golf simulation.  They are 2 entirely different beasts.

[frank70]

Thanks Remers. I know quite well, that i am too passionate about certain things and probably should turn it down.

 

Silent support won't help much i am afraid. Most of the answers i am getting are negative. "It's not possible", "It was ever this way", "It's a video game".

 

If it is right that the forum is kind of a barometer for the devs, what the community really wants, all people interested in the further development of the game should speak out.

 

After all it's possible that the majority of the players do like these scores and the way they are accomplished. If this is the case, so be it.

 

And of course it would be really, really helpful if the devs could offer their in-depth view of such elementary aspects of the core game.

[frank70]

Gemini43460, on 08 Sept 2016 - 2:14 PM, said:

All I see being asked for are scores to be judged on PGA scores and equivilent.  That is not impossible with certain tweaks, but the goal of equal scores to the PGA tour should not be confused with achieving a golf simulation.  They are 2 entirely different beasts.

This. I don't care how we name it. Somewhat realistic scores and comparable difficulty of shot execution would really help the immersion of playing the real thing.

 

I think the wording "simulation" is misleading especially for a golf game - cause we have real simulators where you swing the club.

 

For other sports video games "simulation" means that the sport is presented in a realistic way. As realistic as possible.

[mebby]

Gemini43460, on 08 Sept 2016 - 1:23 PM, said:

For the record, I wasn't suggesting -22 should be attainable...only stating that there is a relative "ceiling" for the game itself.  And I disagree that you can make a difference to the game that only affects the top players, in order to level the playing field.  I still feel that the harder the game, the wider the difference between top and bottom.  The easier the game, the more people can compete.  I'm not advocating one over the other, just stating my opinion.

This is something I've wondered about and I think that it's important not to lose sight of this obviously.  If the game changes so that the impact simply widens the gap between the top players and the average players then it's not a good idea to make that change.

 

I'm not sure that I agree that implementing certain changes would generate this result but if it did it would not be good for the game.

[Harvester]

I come at this from a totally different point of view.  I do not play online/tournaments so I'm not really sure how well others are playing.  But I do know that  when I'm playing solo rounds the short game seems  to easy to me.  Compared to driving and approach shots chipping is to easy in comparison.   

[frank70]

mebby, on 08 Sept 2016 - 3:25 PM, said:

This is something I've wondered about and I think that it's important not to lose sight of this obviously.  If the game changes so that the impact simply widens the gap between the top players and the average players then it's not a good idea to make that change.

 

I'm not sure that I agree that implementing certain changes would generate this result but if it did it would not be good for the game.

Mebby, i firmly believe that this wouldn't be the case.

 

Two reasons for this: The first one i tried to make clear in an earlier post breaking down real life putting stats and what influence that may have on the JNPG game.

The second reason is, that most of the players that are playing the Playoffs right now are already experts of the game. Look at the leaderboard. We have 28 players out of 75 that shot -20 or better. 43 shot -10 or better. These guys are good!! I am totally convinced that they can pick up with the changes.

 

All guys would shooting maybe 4 strokes worse per round. But we would see more surprises on the leaderboard. When the Top players would only make around 5 birdies a round on average you could climb up the leaderboard fast if you have a good round or were a bit lucky on the greens with 2 or 3 30 feet-bombs.

 

I am totally convinced that a change at scrambling and putting would be very good for competitivness. Totally convinced. 

[mebby]

frank70, on 08 Sept 2016 - 5:08 PM, said:

Mebby, i firmly believe that this wouldn't be the case.

 

Two reasons for this: The first one i tried to make clear in an earlier post breaking down real life putting stats and what influence that may have on the JNPG game.

The second reason is, that most of the players that are playing the Playoffs right now are already experts of the game. Look at the leaderboard. We have 28 players out of 75 that shot -20 or better. 43 shot -10 or better. These guys are good!! I am totally convinced that they can pick up with the changes.

 

All guys would shooting maybe 4 strokes worse per round. But we would see more surprises on the leaderboard. When the Top players would only make around 5 birdies a round on average you could climb up the leaderboard fast if you have a good round or were a bit lucky on the greens with 2 or 3 30 feet-bombs.

 

I am totally convinced that a change at scrambling and putting would be very good for competitivness. Totally convinced. 

Well - you know I'm on board.  I'd love to see more realistic stats and I think the scoring would follow closely behind. 

[Greensboronclion]

You want realistic stats go look at mine from Chicago at the Fedex OGT event and after that brilliant 86 which by the way I am really proud of i dont know if I have the courage to give it another go.  Oh and if you see my caddie tell him he is fired.  Lol.

[Affo]

Just a thought, but why are greenside bunkers always 0% penalty, you don't get good lies necessarily in them...adding in a random say 1-20% penalty for power and spin would certainly make missing the green more troublesome?

[Mike Jones]

Affo, on 08 Sept 2016 - 7:29 PM, said:

Just a thought, but why are greenside bunkers always 0% penalty, you don't get good lies necessarily in them...adding in a random say 1-20% penalty for power and spin would certainly make missing the green more troublesome?

Plugged lies are in testing.

[frank70]

Yesterday i shot a -14 in the first round of the RTS playoff tournament in Boston. The score is way too low for a sim but i want to come back to the first post of this thread....

 

How are the scores achieved??

 

First of all: This was one of the best, if not the best ballstriking round i have ever had in JNPG. I missed some fairways (9/14) but my approach shots to the greens were stellar (15/18). So i absolutely set myself up for a very, very good round. Proximity to the hole was around 16 feet for GIR.

 

I purposely watched every putt and was trying to analyze what make % the game offers and what make % chance i would have without the BLI and with a little harder swing mechanic.

I had three hard-breaking putts made from 13 , 14 and 16 feet that even in the game i make maybe only 1 of them normally. So that helped my score. But i had a lot of putts in the range from 9 - 18 feet for birdie - and i made almost all of them. I made them all, because i had absolutely precise information about the break. The greens in Massachusetts aren't very slopey but they have a lot of tiny little breaks. A lot of putts a breaking both ways but only a smidgin. In real life, such greens are very hard to read. In the game .... not. On top of that i almost cannot push or pull a putt with RTS-M at the moment.

 

I had very good distance control on the greens as well. So overall i played a great round of golf. But i would say without the super-precise BLI and a little more difficulty in the putting stroke mechanic this would have been an -8 or -9.

 

One note: It is possible to ram those putts in. i had maybe 3 or 4 putts from 5-8 feet with considerable break in it. I just aimed a little outside the hole and used a good amount of power. I think the cups should be way more sensitive. I see abolutely no-lip outs. The ball drops everytime if it gets contact with the hole. The putts that run at or over the edge should lip out more, at least if they are still rolling with a good amount of pace (if they would end up 3 or 4 feet long of the cup). Hopping over the cup only happens if you use way too much power. Maybe the devs could take a look at the cup physics again. That would certainly help with putting stats as well. 

[wim1234]

i think there are a few ppl who want realistic scoring, but how many.......??? i dont know.

for me the diff of the game is very good right now, at am and pro level.

it is not a good thing to change the game for the whim of just a few, and probbaly the same thing is going to happen then,

at first the scroing is lower, frank is happy, then ppl adjust and we get again very low scores....., and frank is unhappy again

( just a lil joking frank, pls dont take it personally)

..i say if you want more realistic scoring, play on the simulator, i doubt if they get these very low scores, beacuse you have to strike

ther ball as in real.

with mouse or rts, its always just a very small part of the body involved, whereas the real swing is a total body event, and soooo much can go wrong there.

and i am pretty sure things are going to be added that make for more difficulty, like the plugged lies.

the game has still a very long way to go, before i would say its in a kinda finished state.

greetings

[frank70]

wim1234, on 09 Sept 2016 - 08:33 AM, said:

i think there are a few ppl who want realistic scoring, but how many.......??? i dont know.

for me the diff of the game is very good right now, at am and pro level.

it is not a good thing to change the game for the whim of just a few, and probbaly the same thing is going to happen then,

at first the scroing is lower, frank is happy, then ppl adjust and we get again very low scores....., and frank is unhappy again

( just a lil joking frank, pls dont take it personally)

..i say if you want more realistic scoring, play on the simulator, i doubt if they get these very low scores, beacuse you have to strike

ther ball as in real.

with mouse or rts, its always just a very small part of the body involved, whereas the real swing is a total body event, and soooo much can go wrong there.

and i am pretty sure things are going to be added that make for more difficulty, like the plugged lies.

the game has still a very long way to go, before i would say its in a kinda finished state.

greetings

I don't take that personal. Why should I?

 

An execution of a shot in real life has a lot more body parts moving as if you are moving a mouse, for sure. But PP has nailed the difficulty of hitting driver or irons with a mouse almost to a tee (absolutely great job!). I see no reason why that shouldn't be possible for chips, pitches, flops or putts.

 

That's just my point. It isn't about scoring in the first place. It's more about realistic gameplay. If executing shots of the short game with a high quality would be equally difficult as the long game, everything would fall in place much better. Scoring, stats and first of all: The immersion of playing the real thing. Because you would have to think your way around the course better, you would have to avoid being in certain places etc. . That would be the biggest improvement! 

[fishwicket79]

frank70, on 09 Sept 2016 - 06:42 AM, said:

Yesterday i shot a -14 in the first round of the RTS playoff tournament in Boston. The score is way too low for a sim but i want to come back to the first post of this thread....

How are the scores achieved??

First of all: This was one of the best, if not the best ballstriking round i have ever had in JNPG. I missed some fairways (9/14) but my approach shots to the greens were stellar (15/18). So i absolutely set myself up for a very, very good round. Proximity to the hole was around 16 feet for GIR.

I purposely watched every putt and was trying to analyze what make % the game offers and what make % chance i would have without the BLI and with a little harder swing mechanic.
I had three hard-breaking putts made from 13 , 14 and 16 feet that even in the game i make maybe only 1 of them normally. So that helped my score. But i had a lot of putts in the range from 9 - 18 feet for birdie - and i made almost all of them. I made them all, because i had absolutely precise information about the break. The greens in Massachusetts aren't very slopey but they have a lot of tiny little breaks. A lot of putts a breaking both ways but only a smidgin. In real life, such greens are very hard to read. In the game .... not. On top of that i almost cannot push or pull a putt with RTS-M at the moment.

I had very good distance control on the greens as well. So overall i played a great round of golf. But i would say without the super-precise BLI and a little more difficulty in the putting stroke mechanic this would have been an -8 or -9.

One note: It is possible to ram those putts in. i had maybe 3 or 4 putts from 5-8 feet with considerable break in it. I just aimed a little outside the hole and used a good amount of power. I think the cups should be way more sensitive. I see abolutely no-lip outs. The ball drops everytime if it gets contact with the hole. The putts that run at or over the edge should lip out more, at least if they are still rolling with a good amount of pace (if they would end up 3 or 4 feet long of the cup). Hopping over the cup only happens if you use way too much power. Maybe the devs could take a look at the cup physics again. That would certainly help with putting stats as well.

was that -14 on tour pro frank?

[frank70]

fishwicket79, on 09 Sept 2016 - 10:13 AM, said:

was that -14 on tour pro frank?

Yes, it was. KJSmitty posted a -12. Why do you ask?

[fishwicket79]

frank70, on 09 Sept 2016 - 10:14 AM, said:

Yes, it was. KJSmitty posted a -12. Why do you ask?

just wasn't sure if the tourneys had moved up to tour pro level yet.very nice round.i hope to get within 6 shots of you:)

[Greensboronclion]

You guys play a game I am not familiar with and for the record I shot 86 yesterday at TP using RTSM at Chicago and was just glad for that score.  IRL I can go out on a good course and most likely break 80 so for me this game is hard than real life golf and that is crazy and we still want to make it harder.  For the record I am not playing TP anymore as I want to have fun with my video golf and refuse to torture myself with a game and if I want torture in Golf I will play the real thing.  The difficulty of TP is for those who wish for the hardest but most here just want to play and have fun and are never going to shoot -14 at TP and are good with that.  As Wim1234 said above what you guys really need is the simulator as this is not ever going to please you but again a video game that pleases the masses is a success and that is why this game is a success is because it pleases the masses.  For me give me Amateur and Pro and lots of fun and not that misery of the 86 at Chicago.