197 replies to this topic

[Ian]

I used to like watching Morph..........Am I going off topic?

 

Hang on, I started this thread so I can like Morph if I want!  lol

[Dazmaniac]

in2minds, on 10 Dec 2016 - 5:05 PM, said:

BECAUSE IT SHOULDN'T BE LIKE THIS, how do you think game improve, it comes from OP i'm not asking you to agree with me, but its simply wrong i have never seen morphing greens on TV or real life.

What are the greens morphing in to?

Stick to perfect greens and all your morphing issues will go away.

[Armand]

in2minds, on 10 Dec 2016 - 2:56 PM, said:

Once again people are trying to make a PC GAME play like IRL, it's a complete none starter WHY because a PC GAME runs code, what PP have done is added randomness to a straight put that's just wrong, if we except this randomness with the greens as "THATS HOW IT WORKS IN REAL LIFE GOLF" ok let go to the next step lets make driving random after all no golfer hits the ball the same, lets have a random left/right from the tee why not if we want this randomness same with irons from fairway too lets all get random mishits just like real golf. 

 

I was going to like this post, but its message is (I think) sarcastic.  My thoughts are exactly as posted, though:  by all means, yes please, add random left/right on tee shots, approaches and all other shots!

 

 

 

EDIT:  I made a post in mid-October when we first heard of "realistic greens", but the post was at another forum, and I'm glad that my last comment was incorrect   Now, to work on getting randomness into the tee shots and approaches... 

 

Quote

I like the idea of random little bumps and rolls on the fairways and, yes, even on the greens.  Call me an ultra-purist if you will.     In my head, the randomness could be a variation in the aim point rather than random bumps and rolls, but either would make things a bit more realistic in my mind.  I was thinking that either PG or TGC could introduce a randomness to every shot, even the ones perfectly made.  So, take the shot input data from the mouse (or controller) and add ±1.2° of random variability to the aim point.  That would result in 6 yards of variation on a 300 yard drive (not a huge 'penalty', but a realistic aiming/shot result for perfectly struck shot.  The same would occur for long-, mid-, and short-iron shots.  For pitches (up to 60 yards), I think 11° would be the random 'error' in the aim; this would result in, at most, being 12 feet away from your target on a perfectly struck shot.  For chips, I was thinking ±2°, so you'd 'miss' by a foot for every 30 feet of chipping length.  And for putts, I'm thinking ±3.75 or 4°, so that you'd be as much as 8" off on a 10 foot putt.

The random 'error' would be up to the limits above, so not every 10 foot flat putt was a gimme.  I'm sure many players/gamers would cry foul, though, so I really don't expect either random bumps/rolls or random aiming errors to be introduced into either game.

Edited by Armand, 10 December 2016 - 05:46 PM.

[StoneComet]

Well,

 

We know where a certain poster stands in their opinion of randomness in video games of skill. We also know how they stand in their opinion about the OPTIONAL realistic greens settings and the Bumpy greens setting. Repeating the argument over and over will not make me change my view. You can say it a thousand different ways over a thousand times and that does not change the facts that:

 

A ) It is an option.

 

B ) For some people it simulates realism adequately.

 

C ) You are telling other people how they should play the game. Even more disturbingly that they should not play the game a certain way.

 

D ) That the settings are not "wrong" in any way. They just are.

 

E ) Opinions will vary.

 

In addition using straw man or slippery slope arguments may work in some cases, maybe even here but that does not change the logic of such arguments being flawed. The developers, I believe, have no intention of introducing artificial randomness in the swings. The logic behind this observation is that we as human beings are the random element when it comes to the swing mechanics which display that randomness beautifully from my point of view. In addition there are other artificial random calculations within the game such as wind which affect ball trajectory and landing angle and speed which are used to calculate the physics of the balls reaction striking  a given object and the resulting path. The CHOICE to use the realistic or bumpy greens gives the user the CHOICE to add an additional artificial randomness to the putting game that for them EMULATES the randomness of green putting in the real world.

 

If you have the belief that real life putting has only the randomness of the strike of the blade and the balls path then we cannot help you as science has proven otherwise. My own experience has proven otherwise and you evidently live in a world where the laws of physics or science operates different from mine. You should be glad that the developers did not say, you know what this is more realistically representative and even though we cannot emulate real life exactly it is better than what we had before which represented it much more poorly and made some variation of realistic or bumpy the ONLY way to play.

 

We understand how you feel. You have expressed it quite clearly. Many times. Some of us simply disagree with your logic and honestly I personally reject the premise that a video game cannot strive to add the randomness that we encounter every day of our lives. If your looking for an escape from that then this is not your game. Plain and simple. Just because you declare something a non starter or wrong does not make it so with the exception of within your own mind or to those that may agree with you. It is getting to the point as if your making some grand moral argument and you are the final judge of what that morality is.

 

Lastly, "lighten up Francis".

 

Sincerely,

 

SC 

[LeazesNDR]

The random randomness of JNPG is nowhere near random enough for me, like. I want randomness like this.

http://www.bing.com/...403&FORM=VRDGAR

[Drgnslyr221]

I'm a better bunker player in real life and I'm a 15 hndcp. Way to ruin what was a great golf game.

[IanK]

Drgnslyr221, on 10 Dec 2016 - 6:13 PM, said:

I'm a better bunker player in real life and I'm a 15 hndcp. Way to ruin what was a great golf game.

I'm intrigued, why the Trump/Mussolini avatar?

[Buck]

IanK, on 10 Dec 2016 - 6:25 PM, said:

I'm intrigued, why the Trump/Mussolini avatar?

 

Perhaps you guys could PM about that instead of in here?

[Drgnslyr221]

IanK, on 10 Dec 2016 - 6:25 PM, said:

I'm intrigued, why the Trump/Mussolini avatar?

PM

[Acrilix]

in2minds, on 10 Dec 2016 - 4:52 PM, said:

Yes i'm not explaining my OP very well, i get that in real life golf 2 players can miss the same straight put, but i think that's down to the golfer not hitting the ball right, in this game 2 golfers can miss the same straight put hitting the ball perfectly, the green shouldn't randomly change texture for the 2nd/3rd/4th player in the group of players playing at the same time.

 

..and this is where you and the science disagrees. Mike has already stated that a machine was used to test straight putts in real life and 1 out of 10 from 10 feet missed the hole.

[Mike Jones]

frank70, on 10 Dec 2016 - 1:56 PM, said:

And i understood it like Acrilix that the imperfect greens are meant to bring putting stats more to realistic numbers. That wouldn't be the right approach imho.

You're entitled to read it how you like however that's not correct it's just a by product of introducing more realistic greens.

[in2minds]

StoneComet, on 10 Dec 2016 - 5:38 PM, said:

Well,

 

We know where a certain poster stands in their opinion of randomness in video games of skill. We also know how they stand in their opinion about the OPTIONAL realistic greens settings and the Bumpy greens setting. Repeating the argument over and over will not make me change my view. You can say it a thousand different ways over a thousand times and that does not change the facts that:

 

A ) It is an option.

 

B ) For some people it simulates realism adequately.

 

C ) You are telling other people how they should play the game. Even more disturbingly that they should not play the game a certain way.

 

D ) That the settings are not "wrong" in any way. They just are.

 

E ) Opinions will vary.

 

In addition using straw man or slippery slope arguments may work in some cases, maybe even here but that does not change the logic of such arguments being flawed. The developers, I believe, have no intention of introducing artificial randomness in the swings. The logic behind this observation is that we as human beings are the random element when it comes to the swing mechanics which display that randomness beautifully from my point of view. In addition there are other artificial random calculations within the game such as wind which affect ball trajectory and landing angle and speed which are used to calculate the physics of the balls reaction striking  a given object and the resulting path. The CHOICE to use the realistic or bumpy greens gives the user the CHOICE to add an additional artificial randomness to the putting game that for them EMULATES the randomness of green putting in the real world.

 

If you have the belief that real life putting has only the randomness of the strike of the blade and the balls path then we cannot help you as science has proven otherwise. My own experience has proven otherwise and you evidently live in a world where the laws of physics or science operates different from mine. You should be glad that the developers did not say, you know what this is more realistically representative and even though we cannot emulate real life exactly it is better than what we had before which represented it much more poorly and made some variation of realistic or bumpy the ONLY way to play.

 

We understand how you feel. You have expressed it quite clearly. Many times. Some of us simply disagree with your logic and honestly I personally reject the premise that a video game cannot strive to add the randomness that we encounter every day of our lives. If your looking for an escape from that then this is not your game. Plain and simple. Just because you declare something a non starter or wrong does not make it so with the exception of within your own mind or to those that may agree with you. It is getting to the point as if your making some grand moral argument and you are the final judge of what that morality is.

 

Lastly, "lighten up Francis".

 

Sincerely,

 

SC 

Sorry

[Sliceapottomus]

Mike Jones, on 10 Dec 2016 - 1:11 PM, said:

I just hit 20 putts from 17 feet. Motion swing path 0, speed enough to go 2 feet past if it missed, Stimp, 12 realistic greens.

 

Holed 7 out 20 so make % on that small sample was 35% which is nearly 10% better than Spieths 2016 average from that distance. Obviously the larger the sample size the better it would be but I think it shows we're not that far off on the realistic settings.

Two of us at the same time just went into woodys practice area and both got 30 % make from 15 feet... Im not arguing that the theory behind this decision is flawed . What I am saying is on the video game side the  elements which a real life golfer   have that make % stats go up or down dont exist when moving a mouse an inch...so the make % should be higher for the video game side. Im quite alright if the luck element that currently exists in the new build was toned down by half. also the amount of some of the deviation seems extreem not all and couldn't fathom a guess by how much it should be tweaked. in real life you can fix ball marks and some of the deviation now appears to throw of the ball  path a considerable amount more than if you actuall hit a ball mark in real life. the grass blades do not make a putt deviate a foot off line. I wont go into putting against the grain versus with it as this is also a whole different discussion. i did notice that the direction of misses were more evenly dispersed as far as left and right go so thats good. The only way to really compare apples to apples here would be to give this game to the best putters on the pga tour and let them see if they think The video game side of it was realistic...I have played in an a dozen or so scramble tournaments with fellow golfers  including a few scratch golfers and single didgit handicappers and they always want me to putt first because I have a keen eye for reading breaks and speed. but after playing with me they understand why i am a high handicapper and it had nothing to do with my putting. Yes I am a 20 handicap  and have gotten down to a 14 but my health issues only allowed me to play 9 rounds of golf all last year.  i think you would agree that putting is a huge part of your reflected scores so to make such a large part of the game so random Is detramental...Yes It is an option and I realize it is a choice. Unfortunate for your game that a large amount of your pc players will scoff at what could be a great feature and just refuse to use it all together. I'm just trying to help and do not expect every one to agree with me but would imagine that finding a happy medium could be achieved....

[Buck]

I personally love the realistic green setting, just as it is.

[frank70]

Mike Jones, on 10 Dec 2016 - 6:39 PM, said:

You're entitled to read it how you like however that's not correct it's just a by product of introducing more realistic greens.

I played a tad more today and i really like the realistic settings. Maybe the deviation could be a tad less. But overall it is a very innovative feature. Adds absolutely to the simulation aspect of the game. (Would still like an alternative green reading method  . BLi and Grid are too precise. No chance to misread a putt).

 

The lack of spin when pitching and generally with the wedges was obvious to me. Cannot bring a pitch to stop (hop-hop-sit), even when going into overswing. I know that the spin was way too much before, but now it seems a bit too less. I cannot pull back my wedges anymore and partial shorts have a lot of rollout. I would expect a 90% 64W to sit with the third bounce. In the game it doesn't right now. But maybe i am wrong and the amount of spin is right. 

[Acrilix]

I love having the realistic setting too, and used it exclusively in beta testing. It just doesn't look realistic to my eye at present. I played real golf for years, on a local municipal golf course, and I never remember seeing the ball jink off-line so dramatically and so often, the way it does using this setting (unless it had just been spiked and fertilised!).... but in the game I see it many times each round!

If it is achieving the correct results then maybe the game just needs more deviations with less deviation on each one so that it becomes less noticeable to the eye.

[frank70]

Acrilix, on 10 Dec 2016 - 7:59 PM, said:

I love having the realistic setting too, and used it exclusively in beta testing. It just doesn't look realistic to my eye at present. I played real golf for years, on a local municipal golf course, and I never remember seeing the ball jink off-line so dramatically and so often, the way it does using this setting (unless it had just been spiked and fertilised!).... but in the game I see it many times each round!

If it is achieving the correct results then maybe the game just needs more deviations with less deviation on each one so that it becomes less noticeable to the eye.

My observation as well. The deviations should be more subtle. The concept is great. And if i understood Mike correctly, it wasn't implemented to miss enough putts to get proper stats. If that's the case my eye test would say, that the "wobbling" is a tad too much. The current "Realistic" should maybe be "bumpy" and the new "realistic" should be something in between "perfect§ and the current "realistic".

[Ted_Ball]

If you stand over a 25 foot putt and worry about slight deviations you will go insane. Try not to think about it at all (or play 'Perfect'). If you don't worry about the imperfections you can blame everything else as well when you miss. It's not often you'll get a dead straight putt during a JNPG round anyway. If you worry about those rare moments - retire. Maintain your sanity.

 

Now....when wind affects putts in JNPG we will have a lot more fun.

[SirGrassCutter]

DivotMaker, on 10 Dec 2016 - 4:58 PM, said:

I concur but with one caveat...."perfect" greens should still be available for newcomers to the game. In the higher difficulties such as Pro and Tour Pro is where I think "realistic" and "bumpy" greens should be, IMO.

 

No offence but here we go again.  When will some stop trying to dictate what all else should use?  If this direction keeps up the joy of this game will be completely sucked away for the majority.  People need to stop trying to make the game more difficult (realistic) for all just because some players deem it not to their liking.  What ever happened to the original philosophy of this game to allow players to play their own way?!  

 

This is why I have always been so adamant about the ridiculousness of some worrying about every little thing being on the same keel.  I shall repeat again what skill settings are meant for.  They are meant to make the game challenging yet enjoyable for the user who chooses them.  They are not, I repeat not meant to force all on some perceived even playing keel.  The silliness goes on to include complaints on who uses what game controller.  i have never seen one single post from PP saying thou shalt not use a 3rd party controller.  Yet some here are called cheaters for doing so.  This is ludicrousness and insanity rolled into one sloppy shaped ball.

 

 I predicted long ago that this would happen and have one more prediction to make.  Just wait and see that some will start complaining that others have an advantage because they have a faster computer.  Do not think it will not happen.  Every other mundane non point is being scrutinized and worried about.  

 

I have had my custom snap difficulty settings taken away.  Now some want to force my new default custom pro player to be forced to use the realistic or bumpiness settings for greens only?  This is nothing but an outrage and selfishness in the extreme!  Yet each and every time I say this smacks of an egotist or elitist worrying about status playing a video game I am told I am wrong.  If I am wrong then why do some continually want an ever decreasing range of options that others can play in a non tournament system who plays multiplayer?  For crying out loud to those who care about such mundane things please just give it a rest.  If you are this concerned about everything being just so then I suggest you stop playing this or any game and life for that matter.  Nothing in life is exactly the same.

 

This post was directed at all on the other side of this issue DivotMaker, not just directed towards you.  

[Buck]

@SGC:  There's no reason to be upset.

There's no indication whatsoever that the old perfect greens setting is going away.

 

Side note:

I do realize it's just a "name", but when one of the settings is actually entitled "realistic" - it's pretty fair to wonder why that wouldn't just be the new default.

 

It sort of implies that the "perfect" setting could actually be called "un-realistic". haha

One wonders how many would choose that setting and not think - ummm. why am I playing "unrealistic" greens?