230 replies to this topic

[axe360]

Thats the way TS works, at least in TW's 08, You put your cursor over a certain area by the golfer, hold the mouse button down then swing...

I don't 3 click (have tried it) but sounds to me like it could work...  IN TS you have to watch the club and control how far back you want your back swing to go, you don't have any markers or meters  to tell you where a 3/4 swing or half swing etc. is,  so couldn't you just watch your swing and from practice, you would know how far back is to far back, you would learn by experience where you need to click.. Sounds to me like that would make 3clik more like real golfing, then it is now...

 

Now, if some people still want the meter on the screen, that should be available.. I dont care about the click system but I like what you guys are thinking so I put my 2 cents in.. 

 

Peace

[Kablammo11]

 

From Acrilix. @ K11 - I was thinking the same thing. Why the need for a swing meter at all? Just use the golfer and click at the desired backswing height and at impact. I don't even see the need for a translucent trail. If the game's calculations are in real time, as PP have said, I can't see why this method couldn't be adopted, and it would be far more aesthetically pleasing than having a meter on the screen.

 

 

Acrilix - I agree, it would be pure and simple and it would feel natural. You still might want to include a visual help for the club head arc, perhaps even with percentage dots, for easier play modes. 

There's a few problems that come with this natural swing, and myself I would not know how to address these:

 

• I can see it work for pitches, bunker shots, and flop shots as well - provide they each come with a swing animation of their own. But how to apply this method to shots that require only a minimal backswing, like putting or chipping? Distance control there would depend on too small an arc.

 

• With a proper swing meter, the swing action of the avatar is delayed, separated from the clicking input. You click your clicks first, while the avatar holds at the top of the upswing and only swings at the ball once the last click is made. That's what we are used to and to introduce a "Natural Swing" might come as a change, because we will be so busy playing the shot that we won't be able to watch the shot taking place at the same time. A change of habit would be required and some (many) are unable or unwilling to expose themselves to change.

 

• And then there is the 4th Click! Where to put that bugger? Perhaps wedge it in between Clicks 2 and 3? Click 2 to stop the upswing and Click 3 to start turning the shoulders (or the hips) for the downswing?

 

Also, will there be a Mac Version of the October Build, please?

One of these days, Acrilix, I will talk to you about life.....  

 

[highfade]

Some more thoughts on the swing meter:

 

• The spin/ push bars at the bottom means that up to the first bar the ball will only spin, so snap past the bar results in a push/pull. So it is impossible to just hit a push or block out shot that that goes straight right or left. I'm fine with that as I don't want a 5-click swing.
• Will the spin keep increasing past the push bar if so the effect is multiplied and can be severe.
• You won't be able to hit a slice that starts left of your target and cuts back unless you do it deliberate in your setup like in Links.
• There should be no perfect snap. The best you could do is a very little baby fade or draw, like in real life even a straight shot is never perfectly straight, In Links on a flat green with no wind you could hit 10 hio in a row with a perfect snap.
• How about tying the meter speed in with the length of you back swing.  Lets say the speed for a normal snap at the top is the same as a 110mph swing speed, then an overswing will make the meter go 5mph faster and a half swing (up to 9 o'clock) will slow the speed down to 55mph. In Links it is more difficult to get a half or 3/4 swing right because the speed is the same and you should not be penalized for taking some off a shot for more control.
• This should work great for chip shots as well.

Why don't we go radical simulation and scrap the swing meter. Let the golfer animation be the swing meter. I would love playing like this; start you swing, release the mouse button at the top, middle or wherever  of you back swing and snap when the club face is in the hit.

Adriaan

 

 

Pardon for quoting myself from earlier in the thread but I would love this option for hardcore simulation mode. I think it should be easy to implement this option to turn off the swingmeter and use the player.

[Tigers Agent]

Yes! I'm all for re-inventing the wheel! Scrap that meter you folks have been working on all this time! I'm sure no one will complain as to why the game is taking so long.. instead of a mac version.. spend that time turning my golfer into a meter man Here's an idea for tru-swingers..how about when they pull there swing back, their animated golfer shakes his behind and swings forward! (though I'm not a truswinger)So..when can I expect the game now? 2015 maybe? (insert loads of me being sarcastic)

[Ron Piskorik]

Thats the way TS works, at least in TW's 08, You put your cursor over a certain area by the golfer, hold the mouse button down then swing...

I don't 3 click (have tried it) but sounds to me like it could work...  IN TS you have to watch the club and control how far back you want your back swing to go, you don't have any markers or meters  to tell you where a 3/4 swing or half swing etc. is,  so couldn't you just watch your swing and from practice, you would know how far back is to far back, you would learn by experience where you need to click.. Sounds to me like that would make 3clik more like real golfing, then it is now...

 

Now, if some people still want the meter on the screen, that should be available.. I dont care about the click system but I like what you guys are thinking so I put my 2 cents in.. 

 

Peace

I agree that that playing TW 2008 in true swing mode with no meter was very good.  You had to learn a feel for the shots.  Some players had a better feel for the full swing but you could make up for it if you had a better feel for the partial swing for the pitches and chips.  I went back to playing TW 2008 offline while waiting for a beta version of PG.  In expert mode it is still a challenge and fun to play after all this time.  I agree with no meter for true swingers.

I would also like to have a horizontal true swing option.  We didn't have that in TWO and since I started playing TW 2008 again I remember how much I missed it.   A horizontal swing just feels so much more natural for me.

[Kablammo11]

Well, a bit further above I postulated that a click-swing witout a visible swing meter might be a viable way to go. The idea got a bit of support by others and was greeted with deafening silence by the strong, silent types of PP. But that got me wondering: Would this idea really work? It's one thing to come up with a thought, but an entirely different affair for it to grow wings and stay alive in reality.

So I recently phoned the guys over at the golf lab of Blammocorp HQ and put them on the job. They send me back this link to a video:

 

 

 

Well, yes the avatar is default Poser and the animation is clunky, granted. Also, the video has 25 FPS and the frame rate on our computers is much higher, so the movement looks a bit jerky at times. Still, assuming you have watched the vid, I conclude...

 

• A 3 Click Swing based on the actual avatar swing movement - and WITHOUT a helping swing meter - is possible. There are drawbacks, though...

• Identifying the moment of the 2nd click (Holding the upswing - possible overswing beyond, standstill at the top) is quit tricky to get. Rather than look at the clubhead, the hands of the avatar are the best cue to follow.

• Hitting the 3rd click is very hard. A real-life based swing tempo takes about 0.35 seconds from top to ball - the time window for a click is within 0.05 seconds - quite challenging! A swing meter does not need to mirror the actual swing speed IRL and can be set a bit slower, making it much easier to hit a good shot.

• Visual Aids offer not much help... a swing click will always give you very little time to get the 12 o'clock point right. You basically have to start clicking inside ahead of the moment when you see the club head reaching the ball, or you'll be too late. It's like real golf in this regard: Once the club head comes down, it goes so fast that you can't think or decide, you just have to trust your execution..

• It would be temerary, if that method were included in the game, to just set up your shot and then hit it (the way I did it in TWO, without any fear of hitting it poorly, ever!) You would have to make a couple of practice swings first, to get into the groove, and only then you could actually hit the ball safely. This would be realistically tough... Hm... just like in real golf

 

There's a second video called "Swing Loop" here:

If you want to try out getting your 3 clicks right, download it(click on "vimeo" to get there), open it with your video player and set it too loop. Then try to click the table with your index every time the sound track prompts you with a noise. After a few dozen pass-throughs, you should get into the rhythm.

 

I have invalidated all comments on vimeo, so if you feel you have something to say, say it into my face here. Whether this goes any further doesn't matter to me, it has been a nice distraction whilst staring at the "Sorry, no new content found"-message these last days.

(Afterthought: Avatars with blinking eyes look a lot more lifelike than those with unblinking robot stares..)

 

Have a nice day/morning/evening..

[axe360]

Hmm I always thought I was the strong silent type, I guess I"m just "others"..

 

Excellent visuals...

[SylvainH1957]

Depuis que je joues au golf sur PC ,j'ai toujours  jouer en 3 click et pour moi c'est ok. Simplement hâte de rejouer . Beau travail les gars Bravo

[IanD]

Kablammo11

 

Enjoyed watching your mini video and reading your post regarding the animation becoming the meter. As I also stated in a previous post in this thread, I'm a supporter of this variation of meter, and I agree with you in how certain shots would become problematic using this method. I'm surprised we haven't seen more posts in reply to perhaps supporting or overcoming the elements of those swings you mention.

 

For me personally too... I love the thought of No Meter. No dots to aim for.. no real sense of knowing 100% = 270yds etc etc.. that's the beauty of golf, repeating your swing consistently.

 

 

 

Your animations show circles, where to click, for your maximum backswing and also the snap circle too. What I also proposed in that earlier post, was the ability to move them, adjust them personally.

 

If the meter speed is therefore a consistent one, to a point, you can then set your own tempo. Rythym style... granted, it would likely increase in speed at a certain point in the overswing, but using it wouldn't then become such a visual change. By the term visual change, we often see meters change colour when overswing is used, which can be a visual distraction. What I'd like to see, is simply a differing target for those of us who become used to their own personal swing.

 

Only those of us who setup our animations, vis the Driving Range or other practice methods, can begin to hone our distances of clubs effectively. Some of us may choose to underhit and play for accuracy, whilst some may feel they can achieve more power through what we technically call, an overswing. The risk is therefore an individual one, based upon personal choice and preference.

 

In regards to perhaps how the 4th click is added, this may become a feature that is added to the existing animation or becomes a separate supported meter also on the screen. Granted, it detracts from what we're both aiming to see, but if a necessary addition, then the options can be limited. However, I do feel good visuals can be great additions.

 

There is obviously alot more discussion to be had surrounding this type of interface, but I do feel it has alot more to offer and shouldn't be dismissed. Maybe it isn't something for release with this game immediately, but it's certainly a great way of adding a Personal Swing to a game with great potential. Actually, scrub the word personal, and replace it with Perfect Swing...or the PPS (Perfect Parallel Swing).

[Kablammo11]

Thanks for your comments, Ian. All things considered, I don't think that this very advanced and challenging mode of no-meter clicking can or should replace a swing meter altogether - the traditional swing meter is too much of a staple for computer golf by now - and casual players will not want to put in the time and effort to master this no-meter-method just to get their ball airborne. We must be nice and kind to the casuals, we absolutely must, even if our own tastes are bit more eclectic... So, at best and if ever, this would be an additional input option.

 

As mentioned above, I found that adding circles, lines and other helps is distracting players from observing the swing motion of the avatar and thus not very helpful at all.

Moving the circles/spots for snap and ending the upswing would require that players had the ability to define/refine their swing animation, to choose the tempo and even the style of the golf swing, which in return means that the avatar swing movement would need to be customizable - which propels us in the rather complex realm of 3D models with virtual skeletons and joints etc... That is a tall order to ask from the PP Mom and Pop outfit. Total freedom for us players is a good thing - but this would massively increase the workload for the Devs. I'd rather they'd set their priorities elsewehere at the moment; like coming to grips with their mac-asthenia and re-examining their chronic Forum absenteeism. And making a game containing a guy with a stick and with some sort of swing meter on a golf course. 

[Dazmaniac]

Liking all these suggestions for optional swing methods.

 

One thing that got me thinking:- the longer the backswing doesn't always guarantee the longest hit (take JB Holmes for instance) so would there be anyway of factoring this in to the game or would we have to stick with the old tried and tested longer backswing equals more power?

 

[Razor]

I have to say that when I pitch or chip, I don't have a "power" back swing. In fact a lot of times I'm holding the club back in the 9, 10 or 11 o'clock position for a few seconds. But then again I'm a very, very poor golfer. I have no idea how this style of swing can be implemented. I hope that this is not to far off topic.

I debated raising this at this time as I will be out of the country and may not be able to follow this and other threads for the next week or so.

ray

[Armand]

K11, I really like the no swing-meter idea!

 

One thing that I noticed while watching the video was the camera angle/point of view for the no swing-meter swing.  Were you thinking the different angles shown would be available in game?  I understand that the video was aimed mostly at describing and showing the concept of a no swing-meter swing, but I wonder how it would be from a first person point of view.  Imagine looking down at the ball and only seeing your hands, arms and legs/feet (that may be arguable in my case with my belly ).  The 2nd click would have very little visual reference as to when to click, so perhaps a bit of an issue with finding a full swing speed - maybe not the best view in a golf game, but a good idea nonetheless.

 

Anyway, I'm not sure if there was another (golf) game that inspired this suggestion, but your idea is a great one (and very well done on the videos).  I also really like the idea of being able to adjust/customize the swing tempo

 

:twothumbsup:

[Kablammo11]

Thank you, Armand. The camera angles were chosen by me, mainly to illustrate different, possible views of the avatar. Just to be clear: I am not affiliated in any way with the makers of PerfectGolf, so all of it might be completely misleading. But they, in the past, when presenting their work, have also chosen viewpoints there were a bit away from the avatar. One perspective we have never seen from them, for instance, is the classic "from behind"-view, aligned to the axis of the intended shot, as it is used in the Tiger Woods franchise and the Links games.

 

I think that you will be able to move your camera freely while setting up your shot in PerfectGolf - and that you eventually will be able to pick your view, any view, for the execution of your swing. There will be default camera positions and a freecam mode so that you will be able to basically do (look at) whatever you want. There has been no official confirmation of this, but I happen to know from dealing with the Unity 3D game engine that this is possible, so that's how I think it will turn out.

 

Your idea of looking down on the ball in first-person style has already been implemented in "John Daly's Pro Stroke Golf", a PS3 game, and also been very briefly touched on in another thread: http://www.perfectparallel.com/topic/176-1st-person-shooter/ 

No official response on any of this so far.

 

 

[vackillers]

Love the swing meter in the design and the way it looks, the one click - two click idea like most golfing games is a tried and trusted swing meter and works very well, I think the 4-click system is over-complicated though in my opinion. It sounds great and pretty damn realistic I must say, but having to click 4 seperate times its going to be a bit frustraiting to say the least for a lot of players out there. Coming from WGT Golf, I can definitely assure you that the slightest hiccup at ANY time on just one of the 4-click bars is going to mess you up badly where in golf, precision is absolutely everything and its just going to piss off to many people who run a perfect game up untill the last hole or something. I think the concept is good, and perhaps its something you can play around with in the difficulty stuff, lower difficult just having 2 or 3 clicks, but 4 is just simply going to be too fiddley. We do want realism, its a golf simulation, but of course we must also keep it fun as well.

The spin I think you should have as a seperate graphic to control what sort of spin you want on the ball

[axe360]

People can say what they want about TW the PC Series but there 3 click method, novice, inter, advanced and expert never ever ever had hiccups with there meter. Same with TS, whether online or off, it just didn't happen... Now TWO was completely different, it was crap, who would of thought that the same makers couldn't get it right for that game...

Most didn't like the 2 click as that was way to easy...

[Davefevs]

I think it is unrealistic to choose the spin. This is controlled by club head speed, angle of attack, loft etc.

[Dazmaniac]

I think it is unrealistic to choose the spin. This is controlled by club head speed, angle of attack, loft etc.

 

What the man said.

 

Applying the spin to the ball by clicking on/manipulating an additional graphic renders it and arcade game IMO.